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[Music]

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wow

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welcome to shattered reality with your

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hosts kate valentine

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and ferocious prepare to have your

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paradigm

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well hello um this is ferusha

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and today is december 18

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2018 and we have a

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really wonderful show today it

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is our show number 80 i believe

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so we've been doing this for uh is it

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three years or four years now i'm not

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even sure i think it's

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i think it might be four years in any

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case we

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endeavor to do like about two shows a

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month

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we're not in a rush we have no corporate

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sponsors so we don't have to worry about

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grinding them out every week

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and we can be reasonably selective about

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our guests

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and we have a wonderful wonderful guest

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today who is the author of a number of

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books um

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one is just coming out now she's gonna

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talk about those books uh today's book

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is called american cosmic and i am

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really pleased to introduce diana

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walsh pasulka to shattered reality

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podcast

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hi diana may i call you diana please do

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fercia

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and thank you for inviting me oh it is

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absolutely my pleasure and

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having read recently this

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american cosmic your new book i have to

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give you

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um an unusual piece of praise

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and that is reading your book

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brought up so many questions in my mind

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that i am going to go through

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the bibliography at the end and

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hopefully

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dig up a few of those books that i

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haven't read so i can find out

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more stuff and that's great and not

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everybody's book is like that you know

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that you want to do that

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i i take that as a an excellent

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compliment thank you

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well it is meant to be a compliment so

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diana um now right now you are a

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professor of religious studies

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can you give us a little bit about your

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academic background yes absolutely

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so i um i knew i wanted to study

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religion

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from 11 years old and so

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i read everything i could about all the

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world's religions as well as philosophy

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and strangely when i got into i went i

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lived

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in california almost all all my life

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and i went to the university of

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california at davis for my undergraduate

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and um i took religion there but i also

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uh was a pre-med major because you know

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parents aren't uh they're not too fond

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of

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uh the major religious studies they say

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what are you gonna do with that

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um so i i did i i did science and then i

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did philosophy and religion as well

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so when i graduated i decided to um

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apply to what's called the graduate

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theological union

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which is the divinity school of uc

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berkeley and

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um i was funded by the jesuits there i

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am catholic

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and so i was i went to school with

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people who were in formation to be

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jesuit priests

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and i took courses concurrently at uc

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berkeley

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as well um i did take a class uh at

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stanford as well with um renee gerard

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who i don't know if your

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listeners would know who he is but he's

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fascinating and

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he has a book about the scapegoat theory

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and fascinating person so

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um and then after that i went all the

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way across the country to do a phd

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in religious studies in a department

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that focused on philosophy and

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religion and that was at syracuse

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university and that's where

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i got my phd and i'm currently the chair

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of philosophy and religion

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at the university of north carolina

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right on the coast here in wilmington

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and it's a beautiful place beautiful

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coastal town and i folk

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i focus on uh the catholic tradition but

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i also uh i have a few uh

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everybody in my field has a specialty

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but they also have sub specialties

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so because i grew up in california in

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the dot com around the dot com boom in

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the 1990s that's when i was in graduate

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school

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i learned a lot about technology and i

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was always fascinated with it

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so as i went to graduate school i also

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learned a lot about technology

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and read a lot of philosophy of

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technology uh marshall mcluhan

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uh heidegger there's a professor here

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catherine hales at duke university and

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donna haraway

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you know so i always kept up with the

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latest

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research basically on technology and

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that figures into my research as well so

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i do catholic history

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and the intersections of technology and

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religion

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which really leads into looking at the

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brain and how we perceive things

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yes yes indeed and um

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although generally speaking i mean we

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i mean i'm sure you know this because uh

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this is a paranormal uh

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sort of edge science parapsychology

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consciousness type blog blog i'm sorry

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i do a blog too no uh a podcast

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because this is the type of podcast we

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generally do not

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promote a particular religion one over

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the other and i'm sure you understand

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that but

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just um it comes to me

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that um you had mentioned in your book

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that you

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changed religions fairly early on in

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your life which

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um i found to be an interesting part

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of your backstory oh sure

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so i guess when you um learn a lot about

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religions what happens is that

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your religious belief becomes

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complicated and

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um my mother is a non-practicing jewish

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person

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and my father grew up catholic you know

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we had

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irish catholic priests in the house a

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lot and that type of thing

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so i was always around religion um and i

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was also in california there's a lot of

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secular new age beliefs so i was around

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that too

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and i attended a catholic girls high

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school

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uh so and then of course i chose to

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study religion

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that

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you know it the religion for you becomes

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something that's not

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something you just do on a sunday right

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it becomes your whole life basically and

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it's not that i um i guess what happened

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to me was i

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became agnostic in a way in the sense

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that

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i don't think even though i have a

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cultural tradition

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i'm not is

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i don't believe it to be exclusive um

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you know i don't know what god is i

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believe in love

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and you know the the tenets of some of

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the major

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world religions sure so i guess that's

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what you know i mean

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the question comes up a lot i teach at a

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university that's a state university i

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never advocate any religion

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it's it's not what we do in religious

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studies

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actually um we we don't promote

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religions we study religions so

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people you know when you sit on an

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airplane people ask you what you do i

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never tell them what i do

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because you know they'll say oh you're a

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minister well no

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i'm not a minister if if i get close to

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saying what i do i say i

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i study the history of religions and i

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think that's probably more accurate

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yes and um it it is very interesting i

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had dinner recently with several people

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in the field of parapsychology

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consciousness studies

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that sort of thing and some of at least

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two of these people i think you may have

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heard of

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i will not mention their names but

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everybody at the table which comprised

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about six people

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except for me said at one point in their

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life they

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had been an atheist and i said well you

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know i'm not a

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a card-carrying member of any particular

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church

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but i was never an atheist i never it

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never occurred to me to be an atheist

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and they were all shocked at that

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because they had all gone through

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their uh quote-unquote atheist phase

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that's really funny actually

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i mean it's a it's a coincidence or

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synchronicity however you want to look

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at it

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but last night i was talking to one of

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my children

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and um she's ten and she said and we

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have a

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her sister's 15 and she said is

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claire an atheist and i said well claire

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may be an atheist every you know a lot

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of people go through a phase like that

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and she said mama were were you ever an

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atheist and i said you know what i was a

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lot of things but

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i think i i just i couldn't i was not an

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atheist

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and so um she said i'll never be an

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atheist too and i thought that was funny

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but it's funny that we're talking about

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it now it is a synchronicity in fact yes

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it is um it just seems to me i mean my

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take on the situation

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is so much about consciousness

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and consciousness being

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being much bigger than the brain and

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because that's always been my experience

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always have had

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paranormal experiences i

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am unable to be an atheist because of

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that now i like you i don't claim to

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know what

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the consciousness

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of the universe is all about i think

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it's probably beyond me

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but i seek after some of these numinous

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experiences in order to have a better

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concept of what might be going on but i

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am afraid that the

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reducing valve of our brain may keep us

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from really knowing what's going on

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i think that's true i think that we're

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blessed with those experiences

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you know and when when they happen

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they're a blessing

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so your prior uh you you

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were involved with the robbie graham

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book you helped him put that together

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and you are

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you are a co-author of that book um

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would you want to mention a couple of

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your books that are

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out there oh sure oh sure so that um so

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robbie graham

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wrote um he has two books right he's got

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the anthology

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of and i did the introduction for that i

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was actually supposed to write a chapter

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for that

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00:11:02,630 --> 00:10:59,760
um uh book and

286
00:11:04,069 --> 00:11:02,640
instead uh i was also writing american

287
00:11:05,829 --> 00:11:04,079
cosmic at the time

288
00:11:07,910 --> 00:11:05,839
and his book is called reframing the

289
00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:07,920
debate right and he also has a prior

290
00:11:10,710 --> 00:11:08,480
book that

291
00:11:12,310 --> 00:11:10,720
is an awesome book by the way i totally

292
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:12,320
i very much recommend this book it's

293
00:11:15,509 --> 00:11:12,720
called

294
00:11:16,069 --> 00:11:15,519
silver screen saucers and he's a very

295
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:16,079
very

296
00:11:21,990 --> 00:11:19,360
um talented researcher uh and

297
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:22,000
and gets you know pretty theoretical

298
00:11:25,350 --> 00:11:22,560
about

299
00:11:26,870 --> 00:11:25,360
the phenomena and so reframing the

300
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:26,880
debate is his book

301
00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:29,040
in which many people contribute chapters

302
00:11:33,110 --> 00:11:31,040
and i wrote the introduction to that

303
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:33,120
so he it was his endeavor by the way i

304
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:34,160
was i i was

305
00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:36,000
i was not a part of his endeavor i just

306
00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:37,920
contributed the introduction

307
00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:40,320
okay and um i've worked with robbie

308
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:41,120
robbie and i

309
00:11:45,190 --> 00:11:43,920
attended a conference i've uh my current

310
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:45,200
book in the preface

311
00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:47,040
i hope they did take that out i don't

312
00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:48,800
actually have the hard copy of that book

313
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:52,320
of american cosmic yet but i do have the

314
00:11:58,629 --> 00:11:55,360
the um proofs yes which is what i read

315
00:11:59,910 --> 00:11:58,639
yes my edited preface my my preface was

316
00:12:01,750 --> 00:11:59,920
edited a lot and

317
00:12:03,829 --> 00:12:01,760
so i start by talking about jacques

318
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:03,839
valet taking robbie and i on a tour of

319
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:04,880
silicon valley

320
00:12:08,389 --> 00:12:06,399
and i hope they didn't edit robbie out

321
00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:08,399
of there but he was there with us

322
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:11,440
okay yeah you know since i did read the

323
00:12:14,629 --> 00:12:14,000
proof copy that's that's what i read as

324
00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:14,639
well

325
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:17,760
now uh you were also involved with um

326
00:12:24,710 --> 00:12:22,160
a seminal work on um the concept

327
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:24,720
in the catholic religion of purgatory

328
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:26,000
which uh got you

329
00:12:30,790 --> 00:12:28,800
into the vatican library correct yes

330
00:12:31,269 --> 00:12:30,800
that's absolutely true yes so i wrote a

331
00:12:33,430 --> 00:12:31,279
um

332
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:33,440
basically a history of the dot the

333
00:12:38,629 --> 00:12:35,360
catholic doctrine of purgatory

334
00:12:39,509 --> 00:12:38,639
which is a doctrine of basically the

335
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:39,519
soul post

336
00:12:42,629 --> 00:12:42,079
death so what happens to the soul if the

337
00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:42,639
soul

338
00:12:48,629 --> 00:12:46,000
is um not perfect enough to go to heaven

339
00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:48,639
but not going to hell and so purgatory

340
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:49,120
is

341
00:12:53,509 --> 00:12:51,760
kind of like a way station that uh

342
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:53,519
catholics are obligated to believe in

343
00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:54,160
actually

344
00:12:57,430 --> 00:12:56,880
and purgatory for many many many years

345
00:13:03,750 --> 00:12:57,440
um

346
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:03,760
was something that people uh did

347
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:05,200
devotions to catholics

348
00:13:08,629 --> 00:13:06,959
all over european catholics everywhere

349
00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:08,639
did devotions to purgatory if you go

350
00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:10,000
through europe you'll see

351
00:13:13,509 --> 00:13:12,160
part of the churches devoted to places

352
00:13:14,470 --> 00:13:13,519
where people would pray for souls in

353
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:14,480
purgatory

354
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:17,120
and you know that that doctrine is not i

355
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:18,560
mean it's still around the doctrines

356
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:20,480
around but the devotion is completely

357
00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:21,120
gone

358
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:24,000
and so i wanted to know why and so i did

359
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:26,320
a study that lasted a very long time

360
00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:29,519
about 10 years maybe 12 and that came

361
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:31,200
out of my dissertation

362
00:13:34,389 --> 00:13:34,079
and i went to archives and i i did you

363
00:13:35,829 --> 00:13:34,399
know i

364
00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:35,839
used a lot of different languages to

365
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:37,279
look at the kinds of things that

366
00:13:41,189 --> 00:13:39,120
catholics were talking about from about

367
00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:41,199
1200 to about 1800

368
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:44,000
and um and you know i came up with some

369
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:44,800
um

370
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:47,519
some really interesting anecdotes and uh

371
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:49,760
and in fact this is what got me into my

372
00:13:53,750 --> 00:13:51,360
current research into

373
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:53,760
the phenomena which is also known as the

374
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:55,279
ufo phenomena

375
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:57,279
um so and most people wouldn't

376
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:58,320
understand how

377
00:14:02,150 --> 00:13:59,760
well how does a person who study

378
00:14:04,069 --> 00:14:02,160
catholic culture get into ufos and you

379
00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:04,079
know i mean it does sound odd

380
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:07,760
but um what happened was that i was

381
00:14:11,189 --> 00:14:10,480
studying uh the catholic culture from

382
00:14:14,629 --> 00:14:11,199
you know

383
00:14:15,430 --> 00:14:14,639
records in archives all all over the

384
00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:15,440
world basically

385
00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:18,480
well all over the western world and

386
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:21,760
what i came across was i found that

387
00:14:28,790 --> 00:14:25,680
people were recording things like um

388
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:28,800
discs in the sky flames of light that

389
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:30,800
would come into their rooms or cells and

390
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,680
things like that

391
00:14:35,189 --> 00:14:33,839
conscious balls of light and so i wrote

392
00:14:37,509 --> 00:14:35,199
these down now i hadn't

393
00:14:38,389 --> 00:14:37,519
thought about ufos whatsoever i was

394
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:38,399
basically i

395
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:40,800
had the the lens or the frame of you

396
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:42,240
know the catholic culture

397
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:43,760
and i was looking at this and i was

398
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:45,600
seeing how people interpreted these

399
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:46,160
things

400
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:48,079
and i had so many of these at the end of

401
00:14:51,189 --> 00:14:49,760
my my research

402
00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:51,199
and i kept a log of them and i didn't

403
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:52,560
know what to think about them i only

404
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:54,480
included one or two in the book

405
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:57,040
um on purgatory and i showed it to a

406
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:58,320
friend of mine and my friend looked at

407
00:15:01,509 --> 00:14:59,440
it and said wow

408
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:01,519
this looks like steven spielberg steven

409
00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:02,959
spielberg movie

410
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:05,600
and um i thought what and i thought he

411
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:06,560
was crazy

412
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:09,519
but indeed about a week later um there

413
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:10,079
was

414
00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:12,720
a ufo conference in my town and i

415
00:15:15,590 --> 00:15:13,760
attended it

416
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:15,600
and there i met people who were

417
00:15:17,829 --> 00:15:17,120
experiencers you know people who

418
00:15:20,069 --> 00:15:17,839
experienced

419
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:20,079
this phenomena and they were describing

420
00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:21,680
the same things and i that's when i made

421
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:22,800
the connection i mean

422
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:24,079
you know a lot of people would say well

423
00:15:27,990 --> 00:15:26,320
hello of course but honestly i hadn't

424
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:28,000
made that connection before

425
00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:30,480
and so i was intrigued and that's and

426
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:33,279
that started in about 2012.

427
00:15:39,430 --> 00:15:36,639
okay so um let's uh

428
00:15:39,990 --> 00:15:39,440
move back just a little bit up to to

429
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:40,000
tell you

430
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:42,880
that um myself and the absent kate

431
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:44,000
valentine

432
00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:47,199
and our wonderful um

433
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:49,440
engineer here bill we are all

434
00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:51,040
experiencers so

435
00:15:57,749 --> 00:15:54,320
um you know we're we're totally on board

436
00:16:01,189 --> 00:15:57,759
with uh wanting to know more about

437
00:16:04,389 --> 00:16:01,199
the origins of these experiences and

438
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:04,399
sure um and that's part of the reason

439
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:05,680
why we do this show

440
00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:08,880
because um we wanted to have intelligent

441
00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:12,800
discussion about experiences

442
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:16,079
of the paranormal sort now one of the

443
00:16:20,710 --> 00:16:17,600
interesting things

444
00:16:21,590 --> 00:16:20,720
that occurred with my reading of your

445
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:21,600
book

446
00:16:28,069 --> 00:16:24,720
was that i was on an airplane

447
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:28,079
and i was reading your book and

448
00:16:34,829 --> 00:16:31,600
i kept seeing out of the

449
00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:34,839
corner of my right eye a woman

450
00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:38,639
standing just off the aisle of the

451
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:41,759
the airplane um like she would be

452
00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:45,040
sort of standing if there were a seat

453
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:46,800
in this particular place where there

454
00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:48,480
wasn't actually a seat

455
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:50,560
it was towards the back of the airplane

456
00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:52,000
and the

457
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:54,959
side aisle the the side facing the

458
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:56,480
window had gone down

459
00:17:02,310 --> 00:17:00,160
from two seats per row to one seat there

460
00:17:03,269 --> 00:17:02,320
so she was standing where the second

461
00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:03,279
seat would have

462
00:17:09,029 --> 00:17:06,720
been if there had been a second seat

463
00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:09,039
and i just kept seeing her out of the

464
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:10,720
corner of my eye i'd look up and there'd

465
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:12,480
be no one there i'd look up and there

466
00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:13,760
was no one there

467
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:16,160
and i mentioned this to you and told you

468
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:18,720
that i thought it was

469
00:17:22,089 --> 00:17:21,520
possibly our mutual friend brenda

470
00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:22,099
denzler

471
00:17:27,669 --> 00:17:25,120
[Laughter]

472
00:17:28,789 --> 00:17:27,679
which um you know brenda is somebody

473
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:28,799
that i know

474
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:31,440
through the internet and through uh the

475
00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:32,080
monroe

476
00:17:36,549 --> 00:17:35,679
institute and having uh probably i think

477
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:36,559
done a pod

478
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:38,720
uh rather a blog post about her many

479
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:41,280
years ago in her book

480
00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:43,840
but then you had mentioned her and i

481
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,000
thought wow that might be brenda denzler

482
00:17:49,750 --> 00:17:48,240
but you came out and said you thought it

483
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:49,760
was saint mary of

484
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:52,480
agreeda yeah am i practicing announcing

485
00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:53,360
that right yeah

486
00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:55,679
uh-huh if you're reading my book the

487
00:18:00,549 --> 00:17:57,760
saint that haunts my book is

488
00:18:02,470 --> 00:18:00,559
is well she's actually not tip she's not

489
00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:02,480
a saint she's not technically a saint

490
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:05,679
but she is uh up for she's uh there's a

491
00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:07,280
case for her canonization

492
00:18:10,710 --> 00:18:09,760
okay i don't think it's gonna happen but

493
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:10,720
um but

494
00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:14,400
her she's a nun and uh she

495
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:17,679
bilocated to new mexico in

496
00:18:22,789 --> 00:18:22,000
um 1600's yes and she's fascinating and

497
00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:22,799
she

498
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:24,880
kind of haunts my book really because i

499
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:27,200
go back to her and talk about her

500
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:29,039
uh and especially in the last chapter i

501
00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:31,039
talk about her so if you're coming back

502
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:32,240
for you were coming back from the

503
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:34,240
vatican is this correct right

504
00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:36,559
and yes back from the vatican and this

505
00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:38,160
is this is happening to you

506
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:42,080
and i just also on my way there

507
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:44,640
when i was going there i picked up

508
00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:47,120
another book like a pulp fiction book to

509
00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:47,840
read

510
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:50,960
and i didn't realize it was all about

511
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:54,480
the vatican and i just picked it off

512
00:18:57,909 --> 00:18:56,160
do you have a shelf of books in your

513
00:19:00,710 --> 00:18:57,919
house that you picked up

514
00:19:01,270 --> 00:19:00,720
uh through your life and there are there

515
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:01,280
are like

516
00:19:05,029 --> 00:19:03,440
uh fiction books you haven't read but

517
00:19:06,070 --> 00:19:05,039
they don't look too bad like maybe you

518
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:06,080
want to keep them

519
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:08,480
on the shelf and so i just went you know

520
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:10,400
eeny meeny miny moe and i grabbed

521
00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:13,120
one and it turned about up to be it

522
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:14,240
turned out to be

523
00:19:20,230 --> 00:19:17,360
about the vatican and um

524
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:20,240
all kinds of intrigue at the vatican

525
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:20,880
vatican

526
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:24,000
involving um israeli spies and stuff

527
00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:26,720
like that and as people posing as other

528
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:27,679
people and i thought

529
00:19:35,029 --> 00:19:31,039
what's the chances of this so

530
00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:35,039
i i was i was um

531
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:37,600
i hadn't gotten anywhere near the last

532
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:38,080
chapter

533
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:41,039
of your book uh when this had happened i

534
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:41,760
was in

535
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:44,240
i was still in i think your book is kind

536
00:19:49,350 --> 00:19:46,320
of in sort of three sections

537
00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:49,360
and um i was still at in the

538
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,799
end of the first section in the

539
00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:52,799
beginning of the second section type of

540
00:19:58,390 --> 00:19:53,840
thing

541
00:20:01,270 --> 00:19:58,400
um but i have to say to you that um

542
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:01,280
the first section of the book very much

543
00:20:06,070 --> 00:20:02,240
resonated

544
00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:06,080
with me as an experiencer the whole idea

545
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:10,000
that what is known as sleep paralysis

546
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:12,640
for some people may have a greater

547
00:20:15,669 --> 00:20:13,520
significance

548
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:15,679
is something that i personally have

549
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:16,799
written about

550
00:20:22,630 --> 00:20:20,080
uh fairly extensively on my blog because

551
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:22,640
i think that sleep paralysis is a

552
00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:24,240
biological function

553
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:27,520
that causes people to and and and hire

554
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:28,320
mammals

555
00:20:32,149 --> 00:20:30,880
to keep from uh doing strange things

556
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:32,159
while they're sleeping uh

557
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:34,240
like sleepwalking or trying to fly out

558
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:35,200
their window

559
00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:38,640
and stuff like that but i think that

560
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:42,320
you know it's possible that others

561
00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:45,039
whoever those others might be whether we

562
00:20:52,149 --> 00:20:48,640
would call them aliens interdimensionals

563
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:52,159
saints angels whatever you know we want

564
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:52,960
to call them

565
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:56,240
i think that it's the perfect way to

566
00:21:00,789 --> 00:20:59,280
approach angry apes with guns because if

567
00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:00,799
they're paralyzed

568
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:03,039
they can't do anything and and and

569
00:21:07,510 --> 00:21:04,400
whoever these beings are

570
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,520
can interact with us when we are in a

571
00:21:12,789 --> 00:21:09,360
liminal state that is

572
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:12,799
um hypnopomic or hypnogic

573
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:15,520
right right that's exactly right yeah

574
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:17,600
yeah james had in the second chapter of

575
00:21:21,510 --> 00:21:19,600
my book um talks about his sleep

576
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:21,520
paralysis

577
00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:24,880
yes and i think that other

578
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:28,000
scientists over the course of time um

579
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:31,120
have uh said that their theories have

580
00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:31,919
come to them

581
00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:35,360
sort of full-blown into their heads

582
00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:38,480
uh through such a method it just

583
00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:41,200
came to them in a dream or in this

584
00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:43,520
hypnagogic state

585
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:46,720
yes indeed um the two scientists i

586
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:49,039
interview in chapter one and chapter two

587
00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:51,039
are people who have a very interesting

588
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:51,679
create

589
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:53,520
creativity basically a process of

590
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:55,440
creativity that does include exactly

591
00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:56,880
what you're talking about

592
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,640
things that they don't associate with

593
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:00,720
their own wines

594
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:03,200
so um would you like to tell us a little

595
00:22:07,909 --> 00:22:04,799
bit about your adventures

596
00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:07,919
with these two fellows sure

597
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:11,360
so um the first so uh they're anonymous

598
00:22:14,149 --> 00:22:12,080
in my book

599
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:14,159
and um i do that to protect their

600
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:16,000
identities because

601
00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:18,960
of um what i call the john mack effect

602
00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:19,360
yes

603
00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:21,760
um so john mack of course is the

604
00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:23,360
pulitzer prize-winning

605
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:26,640
harvard researcher who's passed away

606
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:29,760
however he did in the 80s

607
00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:32,400
and 90s study people who were like you

608
00:22:34,789 --> 00:22:33,440
experiencers

609
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,799
and found that they were perfectly

610
00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:36,559
normal people and

611
00:22:42,230 --> 00:22:39,760
this raised a lot of red flags for

612
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:42,240
harvard university where he was employed

613
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:43,760
and he was tenured

614
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:46,320
um and so they they um did an

615
00:22:48,789 --> 00:22:47,280
investigation

616
00:22:50,870 --> 00:22:48,799
and uh it was you know he could have

617
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:50,880
lost his tenure first for doing this

618
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:51,760
study but he

619
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:54,159
everything he had done was above board

620
00:22:59,590 --> 00:22:55,679
it was research

621
00:23:02,710 --> 00:22:59,600
so um we so people who i talked to

622
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:02,720
i wanted to keep their identities um

623
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:06,240
carefully concealed um because of that

624
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:08,240
john mack effect you know they these are

625
00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:09,760
people that have

626
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:13,200
amazing careers uh like mac and uh

627
00:23:16,310 --> 00:23:14,640
you know so anyway so i had an

628
00:23:18,789 --> 00:23:16,320
obligation to do that sure

629
00:23:20,549 --> 00:23:18,799
um the first person um was an incredible

630
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:20,559
is an incredible person

631
00:23:25,029 --> 00:23:23,120
who uh doesn't even seem like a real

632
00:23:28,230 --> 00:23:25,039
human being but is and um

633
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:28,240
it took me a few years to understand

634
00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:31,360
uh how incredible this person is

635
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:34,000
and uh dedicate my book to him and so

636
00:23:37,029 --> 00:23:36,400
his name is tyler and i i use the name

637
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:37,039
tyler

638
00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:38,960
in reference to this movie called fight

639
00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:40,400
club because

640
00:23:47,909 --> 00:23:44,400
uh john heineck and our allen heineck

641
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:47,919
and um jacques velez called this

642
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:50,640
you know the invisible college they they

643
00:23:54,549 --> 00:23:52,559
said that there was this contemporary

644
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:54,559
invisible college of scientists who

645
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:56,000
studied this phenomena

646
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,559
but i i have to rename it the fight club

647
00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:00,240
because the first world fight club is

648
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:01,760
that you can't talk about it

649
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:03,760
you can't talk about fight club and what

650
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:05,840
i found was that there were

651
00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:08,400
these people who actively studied the

652
00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:09,279
phenomena

653
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:11,200
however they they would not talk they

654
00:24:13,750 --> 00:24:12,799
would not talk about it they could not

655
00:24:18,149 --> 00:24:13,760
talk about it

656
00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:18,159
and so um uh the first one tyler uh

657
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:21,520
invited me out to go to new mexico to a

658
00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:23,360
crash site a ufo crash site i guess

659
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:25,200
there were about seven that happened

660
00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:28,640
in the 1907 crashes in the 1940s

661
00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:30,880
and all throughout new mexico and so

662
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:32,080
this was uh

663
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:33,600
one in which i would have to wear a

664
00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:35,120
blindfold to go to

665
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:39,279
and so um i i agreed to go but i said i

666
00:24:41,269 --> 00:24:39,840
must take

667
00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:41,279
my friend who also studies the

668
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:43,279
phenomenon and is a researcher

669
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,480
scientist and at first tyler said no but

670
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:48,240
then i said this is who it is and he

671
00:24:50,549 --> 00:24:50,159
researched this person and said that you

672
00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:50,559
know

673
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:52,799
okay um so the reason i think he said

674
00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:53,919
that was because

675
00:24:58,470 --> 00:24:55,520
of all the people in the world if you

676
00:25:01,269 --> 00:24:58,480
had an artifact from a real crashed

677
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:01,279
craft uh this person a scientist would

678
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:02,640
be able to figure it out

679
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:06,159
or at least figure that it was

680
00:25:13,590 --> 00:25:09,760
it was a conundrum so we went so we um

681
00:25:15,669 --> 00:25:13,600
we flew to new mexico um

682
00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:15,679
the scientist and i were blindfolded and

683
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:18,240
tyler drove us out to the site the crash

684
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:18,880
site

685
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:22,559
and we got out there and we spent uh

686
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:26,000
we spent the whole day looking for parts

687
00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:27,840
tyler had been out there multiple times

688
00:25:32,470 --> 00:25:29,840
we had special

689
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:32,480
metal detectors that were configured to

690
00:25:38,149 --> 00:25:34,720
the types of things we were looking for

691
00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:38,159
um i'd never used one before we found

692
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:41,440
parts and and then

693
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:43,520
subsequently these have been looked at

694
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:44,720
and studied

695
00:25:51,909 --> 00:25:48,720
and uh tyler is an interesting

696
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:51,919
i would if you're uh if your audience is

697
00:25:55,909 --> 00:25:52,799
familiar with

698
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:55,919
uh you know general corso from sure okay

699
00:25:59,269 --> 00:25:56,480
yeah

700
00:26:01,830 --> 00:25:59,279
so this person has to be the newest

701
00:26:04,870 --> 00:26:01,840
version of a corso figure because

702
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:04,880
this uh tyler does biotechnology

703
00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:08,080
and so it appears that what tyler does

704
00:26:11,269 --> 00:26:10,880
is interacts in a sense interacts with

705
00:26:14,750 --> 00:26:11,279
these

706
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:14,760
artifacts and gets inspired to create

707
00:26:18,710 --> 00:26:17,279
biotechnologies then that

708
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:18,720
biotechnologies that you

709
00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:21,200
and i are actually very familiar with

710
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:22,159
and would

711
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:25,840
benefit from them um so in a sense

712
00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:29,039
is um creating uh

713
00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:32,640
you know in my mind uh you know inner

714
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:34,400
basically kind of like an intervention

715
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:36,080
into the human

716
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:38,640
body here we this is what we're having

717
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:39,600
here from

718
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:42,480
these artifacts to now whether or not

719
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:44,320
it's objectively the case

720
00:26:47,669 --> 00:26:47,120
i don't know i'm just describing what i

721
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:47,679
saw

722
00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:50,640
for years and what uh you know what the

723
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:52,559
process involved well

724
00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:55,679
i'm i'm going to just interject here um

725
00:26:59,830 --> 00:26:58,640
a little bit about colonel corso who i

726
00:27:02,870 --> 00:26:59,840
never met

727
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:02,880
uh and i don't know anything uh oh did i

728
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:03,919
call him a general i

729
00:27:08,230 --> 00:27:05,840
yeah that's a particular kernel that's

730
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:08,240
right yep did i say general

731
00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:10,080
no i think i did i think i said it

732
00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:12,080
doesn't matter um

733
00:27:18,310 --> 00:27:15,200
but there is just a little problem with

734
00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:18,320
the corso information uh from my point

735
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:20,559
of view and it's not about corso

736
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:22,640
it has to do with bill burns and the

737
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:24,880
fact that bill burns put out his book

738
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:28,240
and he edited without corso's permission

739
00:27:31,909 --> 00:27:29,760
at the very end or

740
00:27:34,149 --> 00:27:31,919
just put in stuff and took out stuff to

741
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:34,159
make it a a better best seller

742
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:36,640
now that is part of now we're getting

743
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:38,480
into the second part of your book

744
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:40,559
which i don't want to go into quite yet

745
00:27:45,669 --> 00:27:42,720
but how perceptions can be

746
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:45,679
changed uh by altering facts and

747
00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:46,640
presenting them

748
00:27:53,909 --> 00:27:50,960
as quasi-quasi

749
00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:53,919
troops true yes and so that's the first

750
00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:54,320
part

751
00:28:01,110 --> 00:27:58,000
uh just that i just want to put a caveat

752
00:28:03,269 --> 00:28:01,120
on corso corso himself i have nothing

753
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:03,279
against and you know i absolutely have

754
00:28:06,549 --> 00:28:04,799
nothing against bill burns

755
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:06,559
i just want to keep the record clear

756
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:08,080
that this is what

757
00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:11,039
to my knowledge bill burns did he edited

758
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:13,039
the book he changed

759
00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:15,360
some of the stuff he took stuff out he

760
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:16,480
put stuff in

761
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:18,480
and now we will never know because poor

762
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:19,520
mr corso

763
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:22,559
poor colonel corso has passed on and so

764
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:25,120
whatever is the actual bottom line there

765
00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:26,960
we don't actually know

766
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:30,159
um that being said the other thing

767
00:28:35,590 --> 00:28:33,120
about these artifacts undoubtedly and

768
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:35,600
this is not me either but undoubtedly

769
00:28:41,029 --> 00:28:38,640
you will have people who say to you that

770
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:41,039
this was a psyop i'm not saying that i

771
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:42,320
have no idea

772
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:45,440
however the um the people

773
00:28:50,310 --> 00:28:48,000
um who have studied other pieces of

774
00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:50,320
wreckage of purported alien craft

775
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:53,360
have found metals that could not

776
00:28:59,990 --> 00:28:56,480
have been created on earth that have uh

777
00:29:02,230 --> 00:29:00,000
isotopes of maybe magnesium mixed with

778
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:02,240
uh metals in a way that we don't have

779
00:29:06,070 --> 00:29:04,240
here on earth and from reading your book

780
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:06,080
i believe you are indicating something

781
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:07,760
similar

782
00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:10,640
yes i mean throughout the book i do

783
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:11,440
suggest

784
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:15,039
that i have no idea if we are involved

785
00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:15,440
if

786
00:29:19,029 --> 00:29:17,600
you know james and i are involved in a

787
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:19,039
psyop or not

788
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:21,279
so and it actually the question doesn't

789
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:22,640
actually matter to me

790
00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:26,080
because i'm not necessarily um trying to

791
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:27,679
find the truth of the matter

792
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:29,200
and in fact the truth of the matter

793
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:31,440
doesn't it's that's my point is that it

794
00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:32,240
doesn't actually

795
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:34,000
matter if it's true or not because there

796
00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:35,760
will be belief around it

797
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:38,799
regardless of whether it's true or not

798
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:41,360
and that's basically the the very larger

799
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:42,720
narrative of my book is

800
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:44,960
basically saying that you know there's a

801
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:46,960
myth called the myth of prometheus right

802
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:49,520
and so this is a quote unquote myth that

803
00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:50,640
where you know this

804
00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:54,640
um human god type thing this titan

805
00:29:59,909 --> 00:29:58,080
is able to give humans steel fire from

806
00:30:02,630 --> 00:29:59,919
gods and give them to humans

807
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:02,640
and humans are able then to have uh you

808
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:03,120
know

809
00:30:07,269 --> 00:30:05,360
a society because of this technology

810
00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:07,279
which is fire right that's rudimentary

811
00:30:12,470 --> 00:30:10,320
and prometheus is um is

812
00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:12,480
uh hurt for this you know he's punished

813
00:30:16,549 --> 00:30:13,600
by the gods for this

814
00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:16,559
so there is this this myth and this myth

815
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,760
doesn't go away

816
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:19,440
this myth is something that we see with

817
00:30:25,269 --> 00:30:22,080
the with corsa with the corso narrative

818
00:30:27,430 --> 00:30:25,279
we see it again with tyler right and so

819
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:27,440
i guess what i'm trying to say here is

820
00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:30,000
that what makes this

821
00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:32,399
what makes this myth something that

822
00:30:36,230 --> 00:30:34,320
really takes hold and becomes something

823
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:36,240
more like a religion when a religion is

824
00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:38,240
something that's actually believed in

825
00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:41,440
is that there's uh there's a kernel

826
00:30:45,909 --> 00:30:44,159
of something that could possibly be true

827
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:45,919
and so that's what i'm trying to say

828
00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:49,440
is that there is possibly

829
00:30:52,549 --> 00:30:51,679
habitable planets you know we have nasa

830
00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:52,559
coming on

831
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:54,640
you know every month on uh you know the

832
00:30:58,149 --> 00:30:56,480
national news saying we will find these

833
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:58,159
planets we will find life out there

834
00:31:01,990 --> 00:30:59,600
they're not talking about little green

835
00:31:03,669 --> 00:31:02,000
men type thing and so there and a lot of

836
00:31:06,070 --> 00:31:03,679
people have had experiences

837
00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:06,080
and so when you work with something that

838
00:31:09,509 --> 00:31:07,120
is you can't

839
00:31:11,269 --> 00:31:09,519
objectively identify it and say this is

840
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:11,279
it this is the smoking gun right

841
00:31:15,909 --> 00:31:14,320
but there's the potential truth to it

842
00:31:17,509 --> 00:31:15,919
you're dealing with religion you're

843
00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:17,519
dealing with something that

844
00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:20,640
will will become religious because

845
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:23,919
that's what faith is about so faith is

846
00:31:27,029 --> 00:31:26,080
you know you can't pin it down you know

847
00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:27,039
like you and i

848
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:28,799
we say oh we believe that there's

849
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:30,399
something but we don't know what

850
00:31:35,269 --> 00:31:33,039
it is and so you know here we have it

851
00:31:37,590 --> 00:31:35,279
all over the ufo narrative

852
00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:37,600
all over the ufo discourse and i'm not

853
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:38,640
saying that it's not

854
00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:40,720
real i mean you know the experiences are

855
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:42,240
absolutely real the scientists

856
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:44,960
that i work with here absolutely believe

857
00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:46,000
in what they have they believe

858
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:49,760
in these artifacts because of that um

859
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:52,000
that possibly you know the the fact that

860
00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:54,000
we can't identify what these artifacts

861
00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:54,559
are

862
00:31:59,509 --> 00:31:57,200
or you know and it also like you said it

863
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:59,519
does lend itself to psyop material as

864
00:32:01,990 --> 00:32:00,000
well

865
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:02,000
you know because it can be spun but

866
00:32:05,909 --> 00:32:03,919
feresha listen

867
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:05,919
don't don't you think religions have

868
00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:07,919
also been used by

869
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:10,320
governments absolutely absolutely that's

870
00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:12,159
my point that's my point is that

871
00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:14,480
there's nothing different here we're

872
00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:16,159
seeing the same thing so when we look

873
00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:17,120
that's why i use

874
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:19,519
christianity as an example you know um

875
00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:21,360
there were so many different

876
00:32:24,389 --> 00:32:24,000
um versions of christianity in the first

877
00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:24,399
sec

878
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:28,000
time the the roman government

879
00:32:31,750 --> 00:32:30,559
got hold of christianity it basically

880
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:31,760
squashed

881
00:32:37,350 --> 00:32:34,960
a lot of the opposition and created

882
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:37,360
what's called catholicism which is

883
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:40,320
literally universal right and so it was

884
00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:40,720
there

885
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:44,320
it was their version of christianity

886
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:45,039
that

887
00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:53,440
you're going to have uh you know this is

888
00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:55,279
this is happening and it's done by

889
00:33:00,149 --> 00:32:58,000
institutions it's done by people who are

890
00:33:02,149 --> 00:33:00,159
narrators it's done by me

891
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:02,159
it's done to you you know we are all

892
00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:03,840
involved in doing it so

893
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:05,600
we can't escape it we might as well be

894
00:33:09,029 --> 00:33:06,960
self-conscious of it

895
00:33:10,549 --> 00:33:09,039
well it's good to be conscious of it is

896
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:10,559
is i guess

897
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:12,720
is the point that i am trying to make

898
00:33:17,909 --> 00:33:15,120
and i know that your book isn't about

899
00:33:19,509 --> 00:33:17,919
finding out the the the answer the

900
00:33:23,029 --> 00:33:19,519
absolute answer

901
00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:23,039
but um i do think that that is something

902
00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:23,440
that

903
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:25,279
other people are going to bring up and i

904
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:26,720
have no idea

905
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:29,600
if any or part of your experience was a

906
00:33:32,870 --> 00:33:31,039
psy up and i don't

907
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:32,880
expect that i will find the answer to

908
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:35,760
that out the only thing that i would say

909
00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:38,559
is that many of these purported

910
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:39,919
artifacts

911
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:43,440
seem to be of a similar nature

912
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:46,159
that is that there is magnesium involved

913
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:47,120
and that there

914
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:50,960
are metals involved in very thin layers

915
00:33:59,350 --> 00:33:56,320
reportedly that are not manufactured

916
00:34:02,950 --> 00:33:59,360
on earth so that is indeed

917
00:34:05,029 --> 00:34:02,960
a very very interesting place to be

918
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:05,039
and as something to muse about and to

919
00:34:09,909 --> 00:34:06,880
ponder

920
00:34:12,710 --> 00:34:09,919
and just to go on a little bit

921
00:34:13,669 --> 00:34:12,720
involving your book the second part of

922
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:13,679
the book

923
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:17,760
is is like mind-blowing beyond ufos when

924
00:34:23,270 --> 00:34:20,159
you really get to think about it

925
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:23,280
and that is that um

926
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:25,440
over the course of time and now more

927
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:26,800
than ever

928
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,720
what is true uh ostensibly as far as

929
00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:32,639
anything can be true

930
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:36,320
is being diverted or subverted or

931
00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:39,119
it's very malleable and not only

932
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:39,839
malleable

933
00:34:44,069 --> 00:34:42,800
in the sense of different people having

934
00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:44,079
different points of view

935
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:46,320
like what happened at a at a bank

936
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:47,200
robbery

937
00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:49,679
but other people coming over it and

938
00:34:55,750 --> 00:34:52,639
making these kind of docudramas

939
00:34:59,589 --> 00:34:55,760
out of uh what had been

940
00:35:01,990 --> 00:34:59,599
um you know a situation that would might

941
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:02,000
otherwise be verifiable let's say from

942
00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:04,480
an old-fashioned newspaper account but

943
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:05,680
even those

944
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:08,160
were probably slanted and definitely

945
00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:10,079
were slanted in one way or another

946
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:12,160
and without getting into politics of

947
00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:14,240
today's united states which

948
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:16,960
we do not do on this show but we can

949
00:35:20,950 --> 00:35:19,040
certainly see how everybody's screaming

950
00:35:23,589 --> 00:35:20,960
fake news about everything on

951
00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:23,599
both sides of the aisle and in in

952
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:25,520
foreign countries as well

953
00:35:32,310 --> 00:35:29,040
so it becomes extraordinarily disturbing

954
00:35:35,750 --> 00:35:32,320
to the human psyche that nothing

955
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:35,760
is true yes right

956
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:38,000
so what you're talking about is the

957
00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:39,040
sections

958
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:41,920
in my book um i don't know if you're

959
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:42,880
familiar with kit

960
00:35:46,150 --> 00:35:45,520
green yes um chris okay so christopher

961
00:35:49,589 --> 00:35:46,160
green

962
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:49,599
um has read i has read the manuscript

963
00:35:53,109 --> 00:35:51,839
and he said i'm afraid people are going

964
00:35:54,950 --> 00:35:53,119
to ignore

965
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,960
the middle of your book and just focus

966
00:35:59,750 --> 00:35:56,400
on the kind of

967
00:36:02,069 --> 00:35:59,760
you know uh the the first few chapters

968
00:36:05,349 --> 00:36:02,079
in the last two chapters

969
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:05,359
ufo stuff right exactly exactly he said

970
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:06,079
the middle

971
00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:08,960
is what is the scary part and and i

972
00:36:11,829 --> 00:36:09,760
agree

973
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:11,839
the middle is the scary part because i

974
00:36:14,790 --> 00:36:12,960
that's actually my

975
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:14,800
research and i've done some of that if

976
00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:16,560
you go to my website american cosmic

977
00:36:20,790 --> 00:36:17,040
i've done

978
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:20,800
two other books that i've collaborated

979
00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:22,720
with with people who are media scholars

980
00:36:26,230 --> 00:36:23,440
on

981
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:26,240
and um basically in in those books we

982
00:36:30,069 --> 00:36:27,359
talk about

983
00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:30,079
technology and you know the the

984
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:31,040
environment

985
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:33,040
of technology and how we're immersed in

986
00:36:36,470 --> 00:36:35,040
it there's no going off the grid

987
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:36,480
you know we can't go off the grid

988
00:36:40,390 --> 00:36:38,320
anymore as much as we'd like to

989
00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:40,400
so we're we're here we're in the grid

990
00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:42,079
and when you bring up you know the fake

991
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:43,520
news how do we tell

992
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:46,640
uh you know i talk about um

993
00:36:52,069 --> 00:36:50,000
scott brown's in the field uh facebook

994
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:52,079
group which is a great facebook group

995
00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:52,480
for

996
00:36:56,950 --> 00:36:54,560
people who are videographers and these

997
00:36:59,670 --> 00:36:56,960
are people who want to capture

998
00:37:00,630 --> 00:36:59,680
the phenomenon uh you know and they a

999
00:37:02,710 --> 00:37:00,640
lot of them just

1000
00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:02,720
do and they they do a really good job

1001
00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:03,760
and scott brown

1002
00:37:08,630 --> 00:37:06,320
is the facilitator and what he does is

1003
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:08,640
he wants to

1004
00:37:11,670 --> 00:37:11,200
keep this this distinction between

1005
00:37:20,230 --> 00:37:11,680
what's

1006
00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:20,240
computer generated

1007
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:22,480
photoshopped and he's been doing a

1008
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:24,560
really good job until recently because

1009
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:26,240
now he can't he says

1010
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:28,880
the you know the uh technology is such

1011
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:31,040
that i can't tell the difference anymore

1012
00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:33,040
and so here we are in this situation

1013
00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:34,880
where we can't

1014
00:37:40,790 --> 00:37:38,160
decipher what's true

1015
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:40,800
and what's not true and so there's a

1016
00:37:43,589 --> 00:37:42,000
great and you know what

1017
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:43,599
it's only going to get it's only going

1018
00:37:47,990 --> 00:37:46,320
to go exponential for russia

1019
00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:48,000
so then what do we do the question is

1020
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:49,280
what do we do and by the way

1021
00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:50,000
philosophers

1022
00:37:53,109 --> 00:37:52,000
have a word for this and it's called

1023
00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:53,119
they have a whole

1024
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:54,720
group of philosophy you can actually

1025
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:56,400
specialize in this and it's called

1026
00:38:01,750 --> 00:37:59,839
external world skepticism when you just

1027
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:01,760
don't know you are like skeptical of

1028
00:38:05,190 --> 00:38:03,440
everything around you the whole external

1029
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:05,200
world what if it doesn't exist

1030
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:07,760
what if it's not true and there are

1031
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:09,440
there's a really great article that

1032
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:11,200
addresses this question

1033
00:38:15,990 --> 00:38:13,200
and it's by david chalmers and it's

1034
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:16,000
called yeah it's called the matrix

1035
00:38:21,190 --> 00:38:19,200
as metaphysics and it's a great

1036
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:21,200
it's and everyone should read it it's

1037
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:22,720
actually free online

1038
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:25,520
and i i i make my undergraduates read it

1039
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:26,000
because

1040
00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:28,480
it describes the world we live in now

1041
00:38:33,109 --> 00:38:29,920
and it basically says

1042
00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:33,119
okay you think that your brain is in a

1043
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:33,760
vat

1044
00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:36,079
and that you know all the things that

1045
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:37,839
you that you see around you

1046
00:38:41,270 --> 00:38:39,839
this is your world but haha it's not

1047
00:38:42,069 --> 00:38:41,280
your world because your brain is

1048
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:42,079
actually in a vat

1049
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:43,520
and you know you could you think you're

1050
00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:44,800
touching this but you're not you know

1051
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:46,240
basically the matrix argument

1052
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:48,400
right and he says what if we just assume

1053
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,079
that this is reality

1054
00:38:54,310 --> 00:38:52,400
and that this is the fact you know this

1055
00:38:56,069 --> 00:38:54,320
is the world we live we just don't have

1056
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:56,079
enough information then he actually uses

1057
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:56,800
science

1058
00:39:01,030 --> 00:38:59,599
to go in and say that's actually reality

1059
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:01,040
it is reality because

1060
00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:02,960
if you think you're touching this desk

1061
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,400
i'm touching a desk right now

1062
00:39:07,910 --> 00:39:06,000
if you think you're touching this desk

1063
00:39:10,390 --> 00:39:07,920
you're actually not really touching a

1064
00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:10,400
desk you're touching these molecules

1065
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:12,079
that do this and do that and if

1066
00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:14,800
we actually did uh you know a scientific

1067
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:16,480
analysis of it it would be

1068
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:17,920
something much different than what you

1069
00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:20,160
think a desk is so you know he's

1070
00:39:24,230 --> 00:39:22,160
basically saying that we actually this

1071
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:24,240
is our world so let's just

1072
00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:26,240
go from let's just assume it and go from

1073
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:28,160
there and i think that that's right

1074
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:30,160
so i believe that that's probably a good

1075
00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:31,760
way to think about this

1076
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:34,160
the question is though is that there are

1077
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:35,760
ethical questions that

1078
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:38,000
come up then about it because you know

1079
00:39:42,069 --> 00:39:39,119
if you can fake

1080
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:42,079
stuff so well that it looks real and

1081
00:39:44,310 --> 00:39:42,400
then

1082
00:39:46,230 --> 00:39:44,320
people perceive it as real and that's my

1083
00:39:47,910 --> 00:39:46,240
point in those chapters because i saw it

1084
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:47,920
firsthand when i was involved with the

1085
00:39:51,109 --> 00:39:49,280
first conjuring movie

1086
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:51,119
i saw firsthand how they used these

1087
00:39:56,230 --> 00:39:52,320
techniques to create

1088
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:56,240
belief and um and it's so scary and i

1089
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:57,680
say you know and there were

1090
00:40:01,750 --> 00:39:59,599
in fact i'm going to be um on another

1091
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:01,760
podcast for oxford

1092
00:40:08,069 --> 00:40:04,880
that discusses academics who who

1093
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:08,079
participate in movies that quote unquote

1094
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:10,480
fake reality and you know what are they

1095
00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:12,240
what are the ethical

1096
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:14,160
you know what's ethical about doing this

1097
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:15,599
and so i think we're in a whole new

1098
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:16,800
world in a whole new

1099
00:40:20,309 --> 00:40:18,240
you know we've got to talk about this

1100
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:20,319
type of stuff and so i guess my book is

1101
00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:21,760
using the ufo

1102
00:40:25,990 --> 00:40:23,760
you know situation as a way because you

1103
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:26,000
know there are real experiences

1104
00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:27,440
you know look at i look at teresa of

1105
00:40:31,750 --> 00:40:29,520
avila she has a real experience and then

1106
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:31,760
it gets completely changed

1107
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:34,400
ray hernandez has a completely real

1108
00:40:37,910 --> 00:40:35,119
experience

1109
00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:37,920
that then gets completely changed 180

1110
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:39,040
degrees on tv

1111
00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:42,960
yes so um you know so the question is

1112
00:40:47,430 --> 00:40:45,440
you know is that an is that ethical i

1113
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:47,440
guess is the question and also

1114
00:40:50,710 --> 00:40:49,760
what does that do to the person's

1115
00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:50,720
experience

1116
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:52,480
you know how does it change their own

1117
00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:55,200
experience of their experience

1118
00:41:00,309 --> 00:40:58,240
and you also in your book vis-a-vis ray

1119
00:41:01,750 --> 00:41:00,319
who has been a guest on shattered

1120
00:41:05,990 --> 00:41:01,760
reality podcast here

1121
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:06,000
very nice guest um you show uh

1122
00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:09,040
like a recreation of what his wife saw

1123
00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:09,599
versus

1124
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:12,079
what he saw and and there were you know

1125
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:14,079
they couldn't be two individuals

1126
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:17,839
more more unified than the two of them

1127
00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:18,720
you know long-term

1128
00:41:22,069 --> 00:41:20,480
couple and all yeah they're in the same

1129
00:41:23,829 --> 00:41:22,079
room and they see

1130
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:23,839
something anomalous but they see

1131
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:25,520
different things yes

1132
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:27,520
i thought that was just great i love

1133
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:29,280
that so and they also interpret it

1134
00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:30,720
differently she's a catholic and she

1135
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:31,520
interprets

1136
00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:33,599
the this you know her experiences as

1137
00:41:36,790 --> 00:41:34,560
angelic

1138
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:36,800
and he he keeps kind of like this mind

1139
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,000
he doesn't know

1140
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:40,319
he says he thinks it's et intelligence

1141
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:41,520
but he doesn't you know he's

1142
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:43,280
he just doesn't know beyond that so ray

1143
00:41:47,829 --> 00:41:44,880
is a very honest guy

1144
00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:47,839
he's a he's an honest researcher yes i i

1145
00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:49,119
like ray i think that

1146
00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:51,599
um i think that he's a good person and i

1147
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:53,680
think that he has

1148
00:41:57,190 --> 00:41:56,319
uh the best intentions in mind it's not

1149
00:41:59,990 --> 00:41:57,200
for him

1150
00:42:01,589 --> 00:42:00,000
he's a successful lawyer it's not for

1151
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:01,599
him only just about

1152
00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:03,760
uh you know getting some income from

1153
00:42:06,230 --> 00:42:05,520
going the circuit or anything of that

1154
00:42:08,710 --> 00:42:06,240
nature

1155
00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:08,720
he's uh he presents things from a

1156
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:10,480
different point of view

1157
00:42:17,349 --> 00:42:14,160
and it has been our mission

1158
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:17,359
on shattered reality podcasts to

1159
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:19,760
sort of look at different points of view

1160
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:20,880
um we've

1161
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:23,359
uh presented people who were involved

1162
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:24,400
with different

1163
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:29,200
traditions of belief systems such as

1164
00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:31,599
involving with uh santa muerte for

1165
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:33,359
instance and and different kinds of

1166
00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:34,880
mexican traditions

1167
00:42:38,950 --> 00:42:37,200
central american traditions because i

1168
00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:38,960
think the person's

1169
00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:42,079
world view changes on some level

1170
00:42:49,030 --> 00:42:45,440
what they experience and so um

1171
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:49,040
a a an academic from canada

1172
00:42:53,510 --> 00:42:51,760
an academic white male from canada is

1173
00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:53,520
going to be seeing something different

1174
00:42:59,030 --> 00:42:56,560
than somebody in the brazilian

1175
00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:59,040
amazon basin in the island of colores

1176
00:43:02,550 --> 00:43:00,240
for instance where

1177
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:02,560
there was a you know big ufo issue

1178
00:43:06,870 --> 00:43:03,359
that's right

1179
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:06,880
you're coming from

1180
00:43:13,589 --> 00:43:10,800
uh strictly a white american male

1181
00:43:15,670 --> 00:43:13,599
view of ufos you're not really going to

1182
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:15,680
get the whole thing because there's

1183
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:18,160
women who see things differently and

1184
00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:19,920
there are people of different cultures

1185
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:20,400
who

1186
00:43:27,190 --> 00:43:24,560
see things differently as well

1187
00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:27,200
and part of our point here is to give

1188
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:28,960
voice to some of the

1189
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:32,000
other points of view without espousing

1190
00:43:34,550 --> 00:43:33,839
as i said at the beginning a particular

1191
00:43:37,589 --> 00:43:34,560
point

1192
00:43:41,349 --> 00:43:37,599
religious

1193
00:43:43,750 --> 00:43:41,359
uh application for instance yes i agree

1194
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:43,760
definitely i think that's a good point

1195
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:45,359
so um

1196
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:48,960
getting on uh to your conclusions

1197
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:51,359
in in this book and i think why don't

1198
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:52,960
you take this opportunity

1199
00:43:57,349 --> 00:43:55,680
to to just mention all of your books

1200
00:43:58,230 --> 00:43:57,359
that are out there that people might

1201
00:44:00,870 --> 00:43:58,240
want to read

1202
00:44:02,550 --> 00:44:00,880
including including the purgatory book

1203
00:44:04,390 --> 00:44:02,560
and the two other books that you were

1204
00:44:05,589 --> 00:44:04,400
collaborating on in the current time

1205
00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:05,599
frame

1206
00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:08,640
sure so i have um a book about the

1207
00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:10,640
doctrine of purgatory which is really

1208
00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:13,839
i think um it goes beyond purgatory and

1209
00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:17,040
it talks about the uh the ways in which

1210
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:19,920
uh people of the european catholic

1211
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:21,599
tradition thought about

1212
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:24,560
the reality the materiality of the

1213
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:26,800
afterlife and angels and things like

1214
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:29,119
that so it's really about that

1215
00:44:33,750 --> 00:44:31,680
and that's called heaven can wait uh

1216
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:33,760
purgatory and catholic devotional and

1217
00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:35,040
popular culture

1218
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:36,400
and i also have a book that i

1219
00:44:41,109 --> 00:44:39,119
collaborated on with michael bess

1220
00:44:42,309 --> 00:44:41,119
and that book is called um the

1221
00:44:44,870 --> 00:44:42,319
post-human

1222
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:44,880
and the future of homo sapiens and in

1223
00:44:50,630 --> 00:44:45,839
that book we

1224
00:44:51,270 --> 00:44:50,640
basically um we have about 30 to 32 i

1225
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:51,280
believe

1226
00:44:54,309 --> 00:44:52,960
um different experts throughout the

1227
00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:54,319
world to talk about

1228
00:44:59,829 --> 00:44:57,760
um technology and our you know basically

1229
00:45:02,710 --> 00:44:59,839
how cyborg we are you know

1230
00:45:05,270 --> 00:45:02,720
um and then i also collaborate on

1231
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:05,280
digital media and religion and belief

1232
00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:08,400
with simone netale at loftboro

1233
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:10,400
university who's a scholar of media and

1234
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:12,240
that's called believing in bits

1235
00:45:15,349 --> 00:45:14,000
so those are the books and i also have a

1236
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:15,359
lot of

1237
00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:17,520
articles that have been published and

1238
00:45:21,630 --> 00:45:19,280
those are actually if anybody

1239
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:21,640
wants to download those you could go to

1240
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:22,960
academia.edu

1241
00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:24,960
and download any of those for free if

1242
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:26,720
you just put in a password i believe you

1243
00:45:30,870 --> 00:45:28,240
just have to kind of sign up for it

1244
00:45:31,750 --> 00:45:30,880
but it's a free website for academics

1245
00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:31,760
and we share

1246
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:34,000
our information there and so i've

1247
00:45:38,470 --> 00:45:35,680
written about ufos

1248
00:45:40,870 --> 00:45:38,480
and the catholic tradition um and i've

1249
00:45:42,630 --> 00:45:40,880
written i've posted my original preface

1250
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:42,640
about jacques vale there

1251
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:45,280
so those are the things and then of

1252
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:46,800
course american cosmic and i have a

1253
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:49,200
website americancosmic.com

1254
00:45:56,230 --> 00:45:52,560
and and i think that your collaboration

1255
00:45:57,510 --> 00:45:56,240
uh with dr jacques valet is a wonderful

1256
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:57,520
one because

1257
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:00,880
you guys are kind of on the same plane

1258
00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:03,119
because he's very interested in all the

1259
00:46:07,910 --> 00:46:04,960
technology of the internet

1260
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:07,920
he's a brilliant scientist a part and a

1261
00:46:12,309 --> 00:46:08,880
way from

1262
00:46:15,109 --> 00:46:12,319
being a researcher of ufos

1263
00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:15,119
and yet he's able to bring this the all

1264
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:16,319
these things together

1265
00:46:22,390 --> 00:46:19,440
vis-a-vis technology ufos

1266
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:22,400
uh and folklore of the past so i think

1267
00:46:26,309 --> 00:46:22,880
that

1268
00:46:27,990 --> 00:46:26,319
you and he make a great team together

1269
00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:28,000
he's fascinating he's one of the more

1270
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:29,920
intelligent probably one of the most

1271
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:31,440
intelligent people i've ever met

1272
00:46:37,109 --> 00:46:34,319
uh brilliant brilliant writing about

1273
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:37,119
this phenomena in the 1960s

1274
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:39,440
he works on the precursor to the

1275
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:41,599
internet which is arpanet

1276
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:43,680
and he also is an astronomer he has a

1277
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:45,920
phd from northwestern university

1278
00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:48,079
and he lives in um he lives in san

1279
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:49,599
francisco and he's

1280
00:46:54,309 --> 00:46:52,560
uh involved engaged with technology and

1281
00:46:55,829 --> 00:46:54,319
he's a researcher so he's active still

1282
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:55,839
actively involved in researching the

1283
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:56,960
phenomena

1284
00:47:00,630 --> 00:46:59,200
yeah it's he's he's just an incredible

1285
00:47:05,270 --> 00:47:00,640
person and um

1286
00:47:12,150 --> 00:47:08,870
i i kind of like to talk about

1287
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:12,160
some of my pet subjects and that

1288
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:16,240
is how do we define what's alive

1289
00:47:22,829 --> 00:47:19,359
versus what's conscious and

1290
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:22,839
that's one thing and the second thing is

1291
00:47:29,270 --> 00:47:25,920
um uh invi involving

1292
00:47:32,790 --> 00:47:29,280
any beings from not

1293
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:32,800
this 4d reality that we're in um

1294
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:34,640
it's possible that some of the things

1295
00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:37,200
that you research and i

1296
00:47:40,230 --> 00:47:39,119
attempt to do a little research of and

1297
00:47:41,910 --> 00:47:40,240
write about and

1298
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:41,920
invite guests on about it's quite

1299
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:44,079
possible that there's more than one

1300
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:44,640
thing

1301
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:47,920
you know oh absolutely absolutely yes

1302
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:49,920
i say that all the time that there you

1303
00:47:54,790 --> 00:47:52,000
know there's not necessarily one

1304
00:47:56,470 --> 00:47:54,800
phenomena it's most i mean phenomenon is

1305
00:47:59,990 --> 00:47:56,480
most likely phenomena

1306
00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:00,000
yes yes because um some people

1307
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:03,040
may be seeing a small grays and that

1308
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:04,079
might be one thing

1309
00:48:07,990 --> 00:48:06,400
other people may be seeing luminous

1310
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:08,000
beings and they might be something

1311
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:08,640
different

1312
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:10,720
or else they could be related or else

1313
00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:12,160
there could be something entirely

1314
00:48:17,190 --> 00:48:12,960
different

1315
00:48:20,470 --> 00:48:17,200
like like the uh like the long thin

1316
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:20,480
uh projectile uh

1317
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:23,839
that came into our solar system

1318
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:26,640
from outside the solar system the one of

1319
00:48:32,230 --> 00:48:29,680
the first things that was

1320
00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:32,240
that that's right i remember that and

1321
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:34,240
that that was something interesting

1322
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:36,640
because even to this day there are

1323
00:48:41,190 --> 00:48:37,520
astronomers

1324
00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:41,200
at harvard who do not preclude the idea

1325
00:48:46,630 --> 00:48:42,559
that it was

1326
00:48:49,990 --> 00:48:46,640
a um a a ufo in essence

1327
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:50,000
a a scout sort of vehicle or probe

1328
00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:51,680
from another place because of the

1329
00:48:56,230 --> 00:48:54,400
strange way that it propelled itself

1330
00:48:57,510 --> 00:48:56,240
around the sun which was different from

1331
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:57,520
an ordinary comet

1332
00:49:00,870 --> 00:48:59,760
and i'm no astrophysicist so i really

1333
00:49:03,910 --> 00:49:00,880
can't speak to

1334
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:03,920
the exact way that they figured this but

1335
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:04,400
i do

1336
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:06,400
i have read the news reports if we can

1337
00:49:11,829 --> 00:49:08,800
trust them

1338
00:49:12,630 --> 00:49:11,839
but they say that it's it's not beyond

1339
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:12,640
the shadow

1340
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:16,000
of a doubt that it could be

1341
00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:19,760
a probe of some alien civilization

1342
00:49:23,109 --> 00:49:22,240
and which might have absolutely nothing

1343
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:23,119
to do

1344
00:49:29,910 --> 00:49:27,119
with uh our culture of ufos that could

1345
00:49:30,870 --> 00:49:29,920
be something just entirely different

1346
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:30,880
sure

1347
00:49:37,349 --> 00:49:35,040
so um to to wrap things up um

1348
00:49:38,230 --> 00:49:37,359
let's talk a little bit about your final

1349
00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:38,240
analysis

1350
00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:41,520
of the situation sure

1351
00:49:47,910 --> 00:49:44,800
so are you okay so basically what's

1352
00:49:48,790 --> 00:49:47,920
happening in the last two chapters is we

1353
00:49:55,349 --> 00:49:48,800
do have

1354
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:55,359
going to the vatican and um i go to the

1355
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:57,119
vatican archive

1356
00:50:03,990 --> 00:50:00,240
um and i also and i'm i'm looking at

1357
00:50:07,349 --> 00:50:04,000
the manuscripts for sister agrada

1358
00:50:09,430 --> 00:50:07,359
and also um joseph of cupertino

1359
00:50:11,109 --> 00:50:09,440
yes and each of each of these is a saint

1360
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:11,119
who's said to have levitated

1361
00:50:15,910 --> 00:50:13,920
yes and um so and in fact i do have

1362
00:50:17,829 --> 00:50:15,920
joseph of the greatest manuscript here i

1363
00:50:18,309 --> 00:50:17,839
had to sign my soul away to the vatican

1364
00:50:21,750 --> 00:50:18,319
in order to

1365
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:21,760
get it and i'm trying to uh translate

1366
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:22,800
that it's about

1367
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:31,030
this is joseph's okay so you're of

1368
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:33,760
course in touch with michael grosso

1369
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:35,599
yeah well yes i do know michael yeah

1370
00:50:37,510 --> 00:50:36,800
because he's been on the show a few

1371
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:37,520
times and

1372
00:50:42,470 --> 00:50:39,440
oh yeah yeah he's written an excellent

1373
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:42,480
book yeah so it's it's quite fascinating

1374
00:50:47,109 --> 00:50:45,119
quite fascinating indeed and we see

1375
00:50:50,710 --> 00:50:47,119
these levitations which are

1376
00:50:54,069 --> 00:50:50,720
really uh unusual situations that um

1377
00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:54,079
many people have attested to even in the

1378
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:55,200
modern world

1379
00:50:59,190 --> 00:50:58,079
um there were two women who visited a

1380
00:51:04,549 --> 00:50:59,200
spanish

1381
00:51:06,309 --> 00:51:04,559
nunnery uh what do you call another

1382
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:06,319
convent convent i was gonna it's not a

1383
00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:08,400
monastery it's a convent okay

1384
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:10,880
so they've visited a church within a

1385
00:51:14,069 --> 00:51:12,079
convent

1386
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:14,079
one of these women perhaps both of these

1387
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:16,000
women were known to me one of them has

1388
00:51:21,109 --> 00:51:18,000
recently passed away

1389
00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:21,119
and the two of them were watching the

1390
00:51:25,430 --> 00:51:22,000
nuns going through

1391
00:51:28,950 --> 00:51:25,440
their devotions and uh one of the nuns

1392
00:51:29,750 --> 00:51:28,960
levitated and the um and the european

1393
00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:29,760
woman

1394
00:51:35,670 --> 00:51:33,280
fainted dead away at that moment

1395
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:35,680
but the woman that i know a little bit

1396
00:51:39,750 --> 00:51:37,920
better who unfortunately as i say passed

1397
00:51:42,630 --> 00:51:39,760
away and is known to

1398
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:42,640
er and is known to to michael grosso as

1399
00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:43,440
well

1400
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:46,720
um she swears up and down and she's a

1401
00:51:52,710 --> 00:51:50,240
was a reliable individual that um

1402
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,720
that this nun had levitated right here

1403
00:51:59,190 --> 00:51:54,480
in the 20th century

1404
00:52:02,150 --> 00:51:59,200
so um we have a lot of uh

1405
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:02,160
talk about levitation and testimony

1406
00:52:07,349 --> 00:52:04,160
about levitation from

1407
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:07,359
people within the catholic tradition uh

1408
00:52:13,030 --> 00:52:09,440
but we also have it with

1409
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:13,040
uh daniel douglas hume that's right

1410
00:52:20,950 --> 00:52:17,280
who was not religious in that manner

1411
00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:20,960
well i mean the um the reason i have

1412
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:22,640
this manuscript is because there are a

1413
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:24,720
lot of people who are quite interested

1414
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:27,839
in looking at those reports in their

1415
00:52:32,069 --> 00:52:29,040
original

1416
00:52:34,549 --> 00:52:32,079
form

1417
00:52:36,790 --> 00:52:34,559
and uh what i found was that there were

1418
00:52:37,829 --> 00:52:36,800
there are pages and pages and pages and

1419
00:52:40,870 --> 00:52:37,839
pages

1420
00:52:42,790 --> 00:52:40,880
of people who signed their names sworn

1421
00:52:44,390 --> 00:52:42,800
you know this is during the inquisition

1422
00:52:46,069 --> 00:52:44,400
signed their names that they saw

1423
00:52:48,309 --> 00:52:46,079
joseph levitate now these people don't

1424
00:52:50,309 --> 00:52:48,319
have to sign their names and in fact

1425
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:50,319
the church didn't really want him to

1426
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:51,760
levitate so

1427
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:54,480
um you know so these people are putting

1428
00:52:58,470 --> 00:52:56,160
their lives on the line

1429
00:52:59,430 --> 00:52:58,480
uh but swearing by the the truth of what

1430
00:53:02,470 --> 00:52:59,440
they saw

1431
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:02,480
so while we're there

1432
00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:04,640
we go to the space archive which is in

1433
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:06,720
castle gandolfo

1434
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:08,400
which is about an hour and a half to two

1435
00:53:13,270 --> 00:53:10,240
hours up

1436
00:53:16,470 --> 00:53:13,280
from rome in a beautiful

1437
00:53:17,589 --> 00:53:16,480
town with a lake volcanic lake and a

1438
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:17,599
volcano

1439
00:53:21,910 --> 00:53:20,000
and um there's an archive there that has

1440
00:53:22,950 --> 00:53:21,920
all the research on space and aerial

1441
00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:22,960
phenomena

1442
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:24,640
and so as we're there we're looking

1443
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:26,400
through you know the

1444
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:29,520
original works by kepler and that kind

1445
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:30,240
of thing

1446
00:53:34,549 --> 00:53:33,440
and it occurs to me that you know

1447
00:53:38,150 --> 00:53:34,559
because we had just

1448
00:53:39,109 --> 00:53:38,160
looked at mary of agrido's by location

1449
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:39,119
records

1450
00:53:43,030 --> 00:53:41,119
and i thought where did she buy located

1451
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:43,040
to the place where we had gone

1452
00:53:46,790 --> 00:53:45,200
and so i said that to tyler i said did

1453
00:53:48,790 --> 00:53:46,800
you do you realize that

1454
00:53:50,069 --> 00:53:48,800
and he said he kind of looked at me

1455
00:53:52,470 --> 00:53:50,079
oddly and so we did

1456
00:53:53,589 --> 00:53:52,480
a little analyses of both places in

1457
00:53:55,589 --> 00:53:53,599
terms of

1458
00:53:56,950 --> 00:53:55,599
their latitude and longitude and you

1459
00:53:58,549 --> 00:53:56,960
know a lot of different things just to

1460
00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:58,559
get as much information as we possibly

1461
00:54:03,270 --> 00:54:00,640
could like physical data

1462
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:03,280
and then you know then i went back and i

1463
00:54:07,990 --> 00:54:04,480
reread

1464
00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:08,000
her what she said about her by locations

1465
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,280
and she also her first uh book was

1466
00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:13,920
actually a cosmology a cosmography

1467
00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:16,559
where she bilocates up you know she

1468
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:17,520
flies up

1469
00:54:22,150 --> 00:54:19,599
astral travels is what we call it today

1470
00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:22,160
yes she astra travels up above

1471
00:54:25,510 --> 00:54:24,480
earth and she looks down and she her the

1472
00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:25,520
name of her book

1473
00:54:33,430 --> 00:54:30,400
is um the spinning of the earth

1474
00:54:35,270 --> 00:54:33,440
so yeah so it's really interesting um

1475
00:54:37,990 --> 00:54:35,280
so yeah so i mean there were so many

1476
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:38,000
strange synchronicities and coincidences

1477
00:54:43,430 --> 00:54:41,200
on that trip that um

1478
00:54:44,870 --> 00:54:43,440
and i think that's part of it here so i

1479
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:44,880
think that the

1480
00:54:48,390 --> 00:54:46,480
and oh by the way i also want to mention

1481
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:48,400
this if you're interested in a book i

1482
00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:50,079
wasn't i hadn't read this book yet

1483
00:54:53,510 --> 00:54:50,880
before i wrote

1484
00:54:54,069 --> 00:54:53,520
american cosmic it's called time loops

1485
00:54:57,589 --> 00:54:54,079
by

1486
00:55:00,549 --> 00:54:57,599
eric vargo we had him on uh

1487
00:55:02,390 --> 00:55:00,559
i told you i i do uh try to do a pretty

1488
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:02,400
good job of uh

1489
00:55:08,069 --> 00:55:06,319
picking people to come on do a good job

1490
00:55:10,470 --> 00:55:08,079
interesting things to say and we had

1491
00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:10,480
eric on over the summer i i don't

1492
00:55:15,670 --> 00:55:12,480
remember i think maybe in august and he

1493
00:55:17,589 --> 00:55:15,680
is a fascinating man with some really

1494
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:17,599
fascinating points of view

1495
00:55:23,109 --> 00:55:21,119
absolutely yes so time loops really

1496
00:55:26,390 --> 00:55:23,119
helped me understand that that

1497
00:55:29,430 --> 00:55:26,400
the whole idea of synchronicity was

1498
00:55:32,309 --> 00:55:29,440
tied up in what was happening

1499
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:32,319
in and you know the the the kinds of

1500
00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:34,319
experiences that i got in my research

1501
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:36,480
as i was doing you know because he's

1502
00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:37,920
basically saying that time

1503
00:55:42,390 --> 00:55:40,400
loops back on itself and that explains

1504
00:55:44,789 --> 00:55:42,400
those precognitions that you have

1505
00:55:46,309 --> 00:55:44,799
so the synchronicity of being in mexico

1506
00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:46,319
and then reading up on

1507
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:48,880
mary of agrada and then thinking back

1508
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:50,400
you know in her saying you know her

1509
00:55:53,910 --> 00:55:52,960
basically talking about this type of

1510
00:55:57,349 --> 00:55:53,920
travel

1511
00:56:00,069 --> 00:55:57,359
um was uncanny and so

1512
00:56:01,109 --> 00:56:00,079
go ahead his explaining of it was also

1513
00:56:04,390 --> 00:56:01,119
uncanny yes

1514
00:56:07,750 --> 00:56:04,400
yes i i agree and i wonder if you

1515
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:07,760
have any theories about

1516
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:11,280
um why this area that

1517
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:14,079
sort of spans new mexico and parts of

1518
00:56:18,309 --> 00:56:15,200
arizona

1519
00:56:21,910 --> 00:56:18,319
to include dulce new mexico involving

1520
00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:21,920
the dulce um incident and so forth

1521
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:24,640
and your incident going out with tyler

1522
00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:25,440
into the

1523
00:56:35,589 --> 00:56:32,160
and um and and mary of agrada

1524
00:56:36,789 --> 00:56:35,599
um having bi-located there and indians

1525
00:56:39,990 --> 00:56:36,799
and native americans

1526
00:56:43,349 --> 00:56:40,000
i should say uh having seen her

1527
00:56:46,549 --> 00:56:43,359
uh years before any

1528
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:46,559
uh caucasians came to that area uh do

1529
00:56:51,589 --> 00:56:48,480
you think it's something about

1530
00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:51,599
the is about the uh

1531
00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:54,880
area itself is it a portal area you know

1532
00:56:57,589 --> 00:56:55,680
also

1533
00:56:59,829 --> 00:56:57,599
mentioning that a number of purported

1534
00:57:02,230 --> 00:56:59,839
ufo crashes happened there

1535
00:57:05,510 --> 00:57:02,240
and they don't we don't have that many

1536
00:57:08,950 --> 00:57:05,520
ufo crashes in manhattan for instance

1537
00:57:12,069 --> 00:57:08,960
right exactly nor in wilmington

1538
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:12,079
um that being said i mean

1539
00:57:15,190 --> 00:57:14,160
what do you make of what do you make of

1540
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:15,200
that particular

1541
00:57:21,510 --> 00:57:18,640
area as um as a hot area

1542
00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:21,520
or a portal area or what would you say

1543
00:57:25,990 --> 00:57:22,400
about it

1544
00:57:26,630 --> 00:57:26,000
from your point of view yeah so um in

1545
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:26,640
order to

1546
00:57:29,829 --> 00:57:28,720
to speculate and conjecture about that

1547
00:57:33,430 --> 00:57:29,839
which i have done

1548
00:57:35,750 --> 00:57:33,440
um i would have to um remove myself from

1549
00:57:37,990 --> 00:57:35,760
my scholar position because you know for

1550
00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:38,000
writing the book i take on my religious

1551
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:39,599
studies position which basically is

1552
00:57:42,390 --> 00:57:40,240
agnostic

1553
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:42,400
with respect to these kinds of things

1554
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:43,440
but my

1555
00:57:46,870 --> 00:57:45,839
more respect my speculative position

1556
00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:46,880
which has

1557
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:49,440
i'm you know disassociating that from my

1558
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:51,040
university and from my press

1559
00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:53,040
but this is just my opinion good good

1560
00:57:57,510 --> 00:57:55,200
yes yeah okay so my opinion

1561
00:57:58,870 --> 00:57:57,520
uh i mean what we did once we realized

1562
00:58:00,549 --> 00:57:58,880
that this was odd

1563
00:58:02,309 --> 00:58:00,559
we thought we should look into it so

1564
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:02,319
what we did then was we went through

1565
00:58:05,430 --> 00:58:03,280
various um

1566
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:05,440
apparitions of the virgin mary as well

1567
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:07,200
and joseph of cupertino

1568
00:58:10,470 --> 00:58:08,960
and we identified where these all

1569
00:58:12,870 --> 00:58:10,480
happened we took their

1570
00:58:14,390 --> 00:58:12,880
latitude and longitudes and we also took

1571
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:14,400
some other information that was

1572
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:17,280
physical uh based on what this person

1573
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:19,040
tyler who knows a lot about

1574
00:58:22,470 --> 00:58:21,119
uh you know he launches rockets so he

1575
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:22,480
knows all about where

1576
00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:24,480
you launch rockets and you know what

1577
00:58:26,710 --> 00:58:26,160
what kinds of conditions you need to do

1578
00:58:30,150 --> 00:58:26,720
that

1579
00:58:32,150 --> 00:58:30,160
and also the mineral and the each of the

1580
00:58:33,510 --> 00:58:32,160
particular places were rich in certain

1581
00:58:35,510 --> 00:58:33,520
types of minerals

1582
00:58:36,789 --> 00:58:35,520
and so you know these are all physical

1583
00:58:40,309 --> 00:58:36,799
data that

1584
00:58:43,589 --> 00:58:40,319
have significant um

1585
00:58:44,309 --> 00:58:43,599
what do they mean exactly um okay i

1586
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:44,319
don't know

1587
00:58:50,710 --> 00:58:47,520
but i do know that that we live

1588
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:50,720
like um that uh

1589
00:58:54,789 --> 00:58:53,040
the researcher named gary nolan says we

1590
00:58:57,270 --> 00:58:54,799
live in a physical universe here

1591
00:58:59,829 --> 00:58:57,280
you know we are physical beings so this

1592
00:59:01,829 --> 00:58:59,839
paranormal phenomena is physical you

1593
00:59:03,430 --> 00:59:01,839
know at the end of the day it's material

1594
00:59:05,270 --> 00:59:03,440
which by the way is what my book heaven

1595
00:59:07,109 --> 00:59:05,280
can wait is about you know the afterlife

1596
00:59:08,990 --> 00:59:07,119
is you know we could kind of perceive it

1597
00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:09,000
as this kind of not you know

1598
00:59:13,190 --> 00:59:10,880
non-physical place but

1599
00:59:14,870 --> 00:59:13,200
people have always talked about it as if

1600
00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:14,880
it were a physical place well why is

1601
00:59:17,510 --> 00:59:15,520
that

1602
00:59:19,829 --> 00:59:17,520
so so we've got this paranormal

1603
00:59:20,789 --> 00:59:19,839
phenomena happening in this particular

1604
00:59:25,430 --> 00:59:20,799
place

1605
00:59:26,309 --> 00:59:25,440
zero as i put it in the first chapter of

1606
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:26,319
my book of

1607
00:59:31,910 --> 00:59:29,520
the ufo mythos the ufo religion

1608
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:31,920
and so you've got some anomalous

1609
00:59:37,190 --> 00:59:33,760
physical

1610
00:59:37,750 --> 00:59:37,200
aspects to it as well that do correlate

1611
00:59:40,549 --> 00:59:37,760
with

1612
00:59:41,270 --> 00:59:40,559
things that this pilot knew as well so i

1613
00:59:43,109 --> 00:59:41,280
mean

1614
00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:43,119
they're you know if people and

1615
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:45,119
throughout history

1616
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:48,240
people purported to astral travel like

1617
00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:51,280
um emmanuel swedenborg in the 1700s

1618
00:59:55,270 --> 00:59:53,680
astro traveled all over the place in the

1619
00:59:56,309 --> 00:59:55,280
universe you know i went to mars i went

1620
00:59:57,910 --> 00:59:56,319
to venus you know

1621
00:59:59,589 --> 00:59:57,920
and he's one he's supposed to be one of

1622
01:00:01,829 --> 00:59:59,599
the smartest people historically

1623
01:00:03,109 --> 01:00:01,839
yes us so you know there's a there's a

1624
01:00:05,829 --> 01:00:03,119
connection here

1625
01:00:07,030 --> 01:00:05,839
um and so i think that i mean do we

1626
01:00:07,829 --> 01:00:07,040
believe him like what kinds of

1627
01:00:09,910 --> 01:00:07,839
experiences

1628
01:00:10,870 --> 01:00:09,920
is he having is it you know what you

1629
01:00:12,470 --> 01:00:10,880
talked about

1630
01:00:14,309 --> 01:00:12,480
earlier about scientists who have these

1631
01:00:15,349 --> 01:00:14,319
experiences and then you know experience

1632
01:00:18,549 --> 01:00:15,359
some kind of

1633
01:00:21,109 --> 01:00:18,559
uh you know technological

1634
01:00:22,950 --> 01:00:21,119
innovation i don't i don't know you know

1635
01:00:25,589 --> 01:00:22,960
but i do think that there's something

1636
01:00:26,470 --> 01:00:25,599
here that we need to explore and the

1637
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:26,480
john

1638
01:00:30,069 --> 01:00:28,559
mack effect aside i think it's worth

1639
01:00:33,670 --> 01:00:30,079
exploring i think

1640
01:00:35,510 --> 01:00:33,680
that um what we have to make a clear

1641
01:00:38,630 --> 01:00:35,520
distinction between

1642
01:00:41,589 --> 01:00:38,640
is what we mean by do we believe them

1643
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:41,599
now some of these individuals we have

1644
01:00:44,549 --> 01:00:42,000
had

1645
01:00:45,349 --> 01:00:44,559
experiences on here with incredible

1646
01:00:47,990 --> 01:00:45,359
stories

1647
01:00:48,470 --> 01:00:48,000
and it's a matter of do you believe them

1648
01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:48,480
well

1649
01:00:53,750 --> 01:00:51,839
it's i choose people that i believe are

1650
01:00:55,750 --> 01:00:53,760
trustworthy so that they

1651
01:00:57,270 --> 01:00:55,760
something happened to them something

1652
01:00:59,829 --> 01:00:57,280
happened to swedenborg

1653
01:01:00,470 --> 01:00:59,839
something happened to me i believe

1654
01:01:02,549 --> 01:01:00,480
myself

1655
01:01:03,910 --> 01:01:02,559
i believe them that something happened

1656
01:01:06,870 --> 01:01:03,920
but what we can't go

1657
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:06,880
forward and say is that we necessarily

1658
01:01:09,589 --> 01:01:08,640
believe the construction that they put

1659
01:01:11,990 --> 01:01:09,599
around it

1660
01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:12,000
yes i totally agree with you absolutely

1661
01:01:16,950 --> 01:01:14,559
making making the distinction between

1662
01:01:18,390 --> 01:01:16,960
their interpretation and then whatever

1663
01:01:20,549 --> 01:01:18,400
it was exactly

1664
01:01:21,990 --> 01:01:20,559
exactly and it's not because they're

1665
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:22,000
lying this is just

1666
01:01:28,470 --> 01:01:25,200
as as it has been perceived by them

1667
01:01:29,190 --> 01:01:28,480
just like um the contact he movement in

1668
01:01:31,829 --> 01:01:29,200
southern

1669
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:31,839
california somebody would say these

1670
01:01:36,390 --> 01:01:34,640
people told me they were from venus

1671
01:01:37,990 --> 01:01:36,400
well were they lying or did you

1672
01:01:40,470 --> 01:01:38,000
misunderstand them

1673
01:01:41,910 --> 01:01:40,480
or are they some kind of energy beings

1674
01:01:45,349 --> 01:01:41,920
actually from venus

1675
01:01:48,470 --> 01:01:45,359
we do not know that right exactly

1676
01:01:51,829 --> 01:01:48,480
yes i i i would love to um

1677
01:01:54,710 --> 01:01:51,839
talk at greater length about the whole

1678
01:01:56,230 --> 01:01:54,720
purgatory part and how it's reflected in

1679
01:01:57,670 --> 01:01:56,240
different religions and different

1680
01:01:59,670 --> 01:01:57,680
philosophies

1681
01:02:01,670 --> 01:01:59,680
but i don't think we have the time to do

1682
01:02:03,670 --> 01:02:01,680
that but the one thing i'd like to touch

1683
01:02:05,430 --> 01:02:03,680
upon before we conclude and

1684
01:02:07,270 --> 01:02:05,440
we would certainly love to have you back

1685
01:02:10,309 --> 01:02:07,280
on again oh thank you

1686
01:02:10,789 --> 01:02:10,319
yeah we certainly would um but i i would

1687
01:02:13,270 --> 01:02:10,799
like to

1688
01:02:15,510 --> 01:02:13,280
perhaps conclude the our interview with

1689
01:02:18,710 --> 01:02:15,520
you talking a little bit

1690
01:02:22,309 --> 01:02:18,720
about the phenomena um

1691
01:02:25,190 --> 01:02:22,319
in portugal uh the um the

1692
01:02:26,230 --> 01:02:25,200
fatima uh phenomena with the three

1693
01:02:29,589 --> 01:02:26,240
children

1694
01:02:31,190 --> 01:02:29,599
and the prophecies and how uh different

1695
01:02:34,470 --> 01:02:31,200
people saw different things

1696
01:02:37,670 --> 01:02:34,480
very much very very very much like

1697
01:02:41,109 --> 01:02:37,680
the children who saw um

1698
01:02:44,789 --> 01:02:41,119
the ufo in um

1699
01:02:45,190 --> 01:02:44,799
in zimbabwe i believe it was zimbabwe i

1700
01:03:05,109 --> 01:02:45,200
i

1701
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:05,119
uh one of of those people as well as the

1702
01:03:09,349 --> 01:03:07,920
as well as the uh researcher at the

1703
01:03:12,950 --> 01:03:09,359
mufon convention

1704
01:03:14,309 --> 01:03:12,960
in uh just outside philadelphia a few

1705
01:03:16,150 --> 01:03:14,319
months ago

1706
01:03:17,670 --> 01:03:16,160
but i was unable to make a good

1707
01:03:18,549 --> 01:03:17,680
connection where i would have loved to

1708
01:03:21,829 --> 01:03:18,559
have that

1709
01:03:24,549 --> 01:03:21,839
uh young woman uh who was one of the

1710
01:03:26,309 --> 01:03:24,559
they were actually two witnesses to the

1711
01:03:29,589 --> 01:03:26,319
phenomena that were there

1712
01:03:32,630 --> 01:03:29,599
a uh an african woman and um

1713
01:03:34,390 --> 01:03:32,640
a a british woman or who lived in

1714
01:03:36,549 --> 01:03:34,400
africa i believe at the time or maybe

1715
01:03:39,750 --> 01:03:36,559
she was south african i don't know

1716
01:03:41,910 --> 01:03:39,760
but uh they were the two women uh who

1717
01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:41,920
had lived through that what they saw was

1718
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:43,680
different from what the adults saw

1719
01:03:47,029 --> 01:03:45,440
and some people saw one thing and others

1720
01:03:50,470 --> 01:03:47,039
saw something else

1721
01:03:53,910 --> 01:03:50,480
and it was very much like fatima

1722
01:03:55,029 --> 01:03:53,920
in in terms of uh of who saw what and

1723
01:03:58,630 --> 01:03:55,039
how some people saw

1724
01:04:01,750 --> 01:03:58,640
nothing and a a a big orb

1725
01:04:03,990 --> 01:04:01,760
coming out of the sky and um then

1726
01:04:05,270 --> 01:04:04,000
being seeming to be sitting on it and

1727
01:04:08,309 --> 01:04:05,280
coming off it and

1728
01:04:09,430 --> 01:04:08,319
all kinds of stuff so let's talk just a

1729
01:04:13,430 --> 01:04:09,440
little bit

1730
01:04:16,390 --> 01:04:13,440
about fatima and was it uh

1731
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:16,400
the virgin mary or was it a ufo and i

1732
01:04:20,390 --> 01:04:17,280
know you can't

1733
01:04:22,950 --> 01:04:20,400
you can't i can't tell you what

1734
01:04:25,190 --> 01:04:22,960
nobody can really say or maybe it's all

1735
01:04:29,349 --> 01:04:25,200
the same thing is the corn maiden

1736
01:04:31,829 --> 01:04:29,359
from from um mexico uh the same thing as

1737
01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:31,839
the virgin of guadalupe

1738
01:04:35,589 --> 01:04:33,760
there are those who will scream and

1739
01:04:35,990 --> 01:04:35,599
stamp and say it was the corn maiden and

1740
01:04:39,109 --> 01:04:36,000
others

1741
01:04:41,270 --> 01:04:39,119
no it was our blessed mother so i can't

1742
01:04:43,270 --> 01:04:41,280
touch those things and don't want to

1743
01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:43,280
disturb anybody's beliefs but

1744
01:04:48,150 --> 01:04:46,480
let's talk a little bit about fatima yes

1745
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:48,160
so if you're interested in that and if

1746
01:04:52,549 --> 01:04:50,480
your listeners are interested as well i

1747
01:04:55,589 --> 01:04:52,559
definitely have two books there

1748
01:04:57,029 --> 01:04:55,599
in the bibliography the and i can't i

1749
01:04:57,910 --> 01:04:57,039
wish i could remember the name of the

1750
01:05:01,270 --> 01:04:57,920
first book

1751
01:05:03,190 --> 01:05:01,280
uh it's researchers from um

1752
01:05:05,190 --> 01:05:03,200
they're not north american researchers

1753
01:05:06,309 --> 01:05:05,200
but they've done an analyses of all the

1754
01:05:09,990 --> 01:05:06,319
primary sources

1755
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:10,000
of fatima and um and that book

1756
01:05:13,589 --> 01:05:12,880
is excellent on it and jacques valet

1757
01:05:16,069 --> 01:05:13,599
also

1758
01:05:16,870 --> 01:05:16,079
does uh he actually wrote the forward to

1759
01:05:19,109 --> 01:05:16,880
their book

1760
01:05:19,990 --> 01:05:19,119
and he's also done uh primary source

1761
01:05:22,950 --> 01:05:20,000
research

1762
01:05:23,670 --> 01:05:22,960
and the you know once you start to look

1763
01:05:26,789 --> 01:05:23,680
at the

1764
01:05:29,349 --> 01:05:26,799
things that happened to the three kids

1765
01:05:30,950 --> 01:05:29,359
um that had you know they were they were

1766
01:05:33,990 --> 01:05:30,960
very young at the time

1767
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:34,000
and cousins and uh lucy

1768
01:05:38,309 --> 01:05:37,119
jacinto and francisco and so what's

1769
01:05:42,069 --> 01:05:38,319
happening is that

1770
01:05:45,510 --> 01:05:42,079
they first see a a

1771
01:05:47,829 --> 01:05:45,520
being a luminous being on a disc

1772
01:05:49,510 --> 01:05:47,839
and they they don't know what it is uh

1773
01:05:51,029 --> 01:05:49,520
they assume it's an angel

1774
01:05:53,109 --> 01:05:51,039
and it tells them that they're going to

1775
01:05:54,950 --> 01:05:53,119
see this woman

1776
01:05:56,710 --> 01:05:54,960
and so they don't then the woman is

1777
01:05:59,990 --> 01:05:56,720
never named and so the

1778
01:06:01,750 --> 01:06:00,000
the woman then comes and the fatima

1779
01:06:03,430 --> 01:06:01,760
apparition the apparitions of the virgin

1780
01:06:05,750 --> 01:06:03,440
mary they happen

1781
01:06:07,190 --> 01:06:05,760
um there are many of them they all have

1782
01:06:09,349 --> 01:06:07,200
their own histories

1783
01:06:10,390 --> 01:06:09,359
um listeners should look at them they're

1784
01:06:12,630 --> 01:06:10,400
very interesting

1785
01:06:13,589 --> 01:06:12,640
um they they happen in lords they happen

1786
01:06:16,150 --> 01:06:13,599
in fatima

1787
01:06:16,710 --> 01:06:16,160
and they're all very different but one

1788
01:06:19,670 --> 01:06:16,720
thing is

1789
01:06:20,309 --> 01:06:19,680
is interesting is that you need to it's

1790
01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:20,319
usually

1791
01:06:26,150 --> 01:06:23,760
child seeing the the uh

1792
01:06:28,309 --> 01:06:26,160
the virgin quote unquote virgin but the

1793
01:06:31,990 --> 01:06:28,319
children never actually

1794
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:32,000
say who she is until the adults interact

1795
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:34,720
with the children so they don't actually

1796
01:06:37,510 --> 01:06:35,440
know

1797
01:06:39,270 --> 01:06:37,520
what they're seeing and with that and

1798
01:06:41,190 --> 01:06:39,280
then the fatima what's that what's

1799
01:06:41,910 --> 01:06:41,200
interesting about the fatima apparitions

1800
01:06:44,789 --> 01:06:41,920
is that

1801
01:06:46,789 --> 01:06:44,799
there's a giant sighting and it's called

1802
01:06:48,950 --> 01:06:46,799
the miracle of the sun

1803
01:06:51,589 --> 01:06:48,960
and there's a giant sighting of

1804
01:06:55,430 --> 01:06:51,599
thousands of people who actually go

1805
01:06:56,069 --> 01:06:55,440
and it's in 1917 and it's october 29th

1806
01:06:58,630 --> 01:06:56,079
and they go

1807
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:58,640
and they um you know you've got atheists

1808
01:07:01,109 --> 01:06:59,440
you've got

1809
01:07:02,870 --> 01:07:01,119
people there that are professionals you

1810
01:07:04,069 --> 01:07:02,880
have journalists you have everybody

1811
01:07:07,270 --> 01:07:04,079
there you've got of course

1812
01:07:10,069 --> 01:07:07,280
the people who are devotees and

1813
01:07:11,670 --> 01:07:10,079
and the son does a lot of very odd

1814
01:07:13,349 --> 01:07:11,680
things it looks like it's going to fall

1815
01:07:15,109 --> 01:07:13,359
on people people are afraid

1816
01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:15,119
people see things some people don't see

1817
01:07:19,349 --> 01:07:16,960
anything okay

1818
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:19,359
and so you know this you can see again

1819
01:07:22,390 --> 01:07:21,280
and again it also happens with sightings

1820
01:07:24,549 --> 01:07:22,400
of ufos

1821
01:07:26,470 --> 01:07:24,559
you go and you see you know like look at

1822
01:07:28,870 --> 01:07:26,480
what happened to ray hernandez right

1823
01:07:30,950 --> 01:07:28,880
so they both see something but it's they

1824
01:07:33,750 --> 01:07:30,960
both see something completely different

1825
01:07:35,910 --> 01:07:33,760
so the question is wow what's what is

1826
01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:35,920
happening here you know and i think that

1827
01:07:38,230 --> 01:07:37,359
there are many many things that are

1828
01:07:42,549 --> 01:07:38,240
happening

1829
01:07:46,470 --> 01:07:42,559
best explained by

1830
01:07:49,750 --> 01:07:46,480
a book called um religious experience

1831
01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:49,760
uh revisited uh by ann taves and she

1832
01:07:53,349 --> 01:07:52,240
talks about the interpretive process of

1833
01:07:55,510 --> 01:07:53,359
when you have this

1834
01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:55,520
special experience what happens when you

1835
01:07:59,270 --> 01:07:56,880
start you know you you

1836
01:08:01,270 --> 01:07:59,280
engage in the interpretation of it and

1837
01:08:02,069 --> 01:08:01,280
it all depends on what you know you also

1838
01:08:04,549 --> 01:08:02,079
said this

1839
01:08:06,069 --> 01:08:04,559
in your in this podcast earlier you said

1840
01:08:08,549 --> 01:08:06,079
well you know we experience we

1841
01:08:10,150 --> 01:08:08,559
we have an experience but depending on

1842
01:08:11,750 --> 01:08:10,160
where we come from like a white male

1843
01:08:12,230 --> 01:08:11,760
from canada is going to see it different

1844
01:08:13,829 --> 01:08:12,240
than

1845
01:08:16,630 --> 01:08:13,839
you know i believe that's absolutely

1846
01:08:20,229 --> 01:08:16,640
true here you have people who

1847
01:08:22,470 --> 01:08:20,239
share a cultural tradition and they see

1848
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:22,480
this they experience it and i believe

1849
01:08:26,149 --> 01:08:24,400
it's not necessarily a sighting it's

1850
01:08:27,510 --> 01:08:26,159
more of an experience because you know

1851
01:08:30,070 --> 01:08:27,520
the air changes

1852
01:08:31,349 --> 01:08:30,080
yes um you know some people are wet some

1853
01:08:34,229 --> 01:08:31,359
people are not wet

1854
01:08:35,829 --> 01:08:34,239
so i mean it's it's absolutely a strange

1855
01:08:38,149 --> 01:08:35,839
experience even the catholic church

1856
01:08:40,149 --> 01:08:38,159
after looking at it you know and by the

1857
01:08:43,349 --> 01:08:40,159
way the catholic church is quite

1858
01:08:45,030 --> 01:08:43,359
um they actually don't

1859
01:08:46,950 --> 01:08:45,040
want to say these kinds of things you

1860
01:08:48,630 --> 01:08:46,960
know they're they err on the side of

1861
01:08:50,390 --> 01:08:48,640
being extremely cautious

1862
01:08:52,630 --> 01:08:50,400
so if they say something supernatural

1863
01:08:54,070 --> 01:08:52,640
happened then there's not there is no

1864
01:08:57,910 --> 01:08:54,080
explanation here for this

1865
01:08:58,309 --> 01:08:57,920
this situation um but it it resembles my

1866
01:09:00,229 --> 01:08:58,319
point

1867
01:09:01,590 --> 01:09:00,239
in the book is that it not only

1868
01:09:04,630 --> 01:09:01,600
resembles a classic

1869
01:09:06,470 --> 01:09:04,640
kind of ufo type experience but you know

1870
01:09:09,669 --> 01:09:06,480
if you go to a movie

1871
01:09:11,590 --> 01:09:09,679
about and i use 2001 a space odyssey and

1872
01:09:14,309 --> 01:09:11,600
you look at that movie

1873
01:09:14,789 --> 01:09:14,319
um and you you know we all look at that

1874
01:09:16,709 --> 01:09:14,799
movie

1875
01:09:18,390 --> 01:09:16,719
and we all experience you know we have a

1876
01:09:19,269 --> 01:09:18,400
similar experience a lot of the things

1877
01:09:22,309 --> 01:09:19,279
that take place

1878
01:09:25,510 --> 01:09:22,319
in the movie had also take taken place

1879
01:09:28,789 --> 01:09:25,520
in the the virgin mary um

1880
01:09:30,149 --> 01:09:28,799
you know ex uh experience yeah so in the

1881
01:09:32,630 --> 01:09:30,159
fatima experience

1882
01:09:33,510 --> 01:09:32,640
and what i'm trying to explain is that

1883
01:09:36,709 --> 01:09:33,520
the type of

1884
01:09:39,349 --> 01:09:36,719
of media we have today is so immersive

1885
01:09:41,510 --> 01:09:39,359
that we can't extract we you know our

1886
01:09:43,510 --> 01:09:41,520
brains can't really tell the difference

1887
01:09:45,430 --> 01:09:43,520
when we're in this and that's what uh

1888
01:09:47,990 --> 01:09:45,440
donna haraway was trying to get

1889
01:09:49,349 --> 01:09:48,000
me to understand when i was looking you

1890
01:09:51,189 --> 01:09:49,359
know she said when you look at

1891
01:09:52,870 --> 01:09:51,199
the virgin mary and these people are

1892
01:09:54,070 --> 01:09:52,880
looking at an apparition of the virgin

1893
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:54,080
mary

1894
01:09:57,270 --> 01:09:55,920
what's happening in their brains and i

1895
01:09:59,110 --> 01:09:57,280
was like i don't know

1896
01:10:01,430 --> 01:09:59,120
let me think about that she said when

1897
01:10:02,310 --> 01:10:01,440
you look at a film you go into a movie

1898
01:10:03,910 --> 01:10:02,320
theater and

1899
01:10:06,229 --> 01:10:03,920
you look at a film what is happening in

1900
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:06,239
your brain and i thought well i didn't

1901
01:10:10,310 --> 01:10:06,960
know until i

1902
01:10:11,030 --> 01:10:10,320
i met jacques valet then and i figured

1903
01:10:14,229 --> 01:10:11,040
it out

1904
01:10:17,590 --> 01:10:14,239
it's something really similar

1905
01:10:21,110 --> 01:10:17,600
well it's it's it's uh it's a conundrum

1906
01:10:21,590 --> 01:10:21,120
for sure and to just to finish up my

1907
01:10:26,310 --> 01:10:21,600
thoughts

1908
01:10:26,950 --> 01:10:26,320
that that i wanted to express and the

1909
01:10:29,830 --> 01:10:26,960
first one

1910
01:10:30,630 --> 01:10:29,840
is something that comes up in your book

1911
01:10:33,830 --> 01:10:30,640
and very

1912
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:33,840
uh very eloquently about there

1913
01:10:38,149 --> 01:10:36,239
is a church any church you study the

1914
01:10:41,430 --> 01:10:38,159
catholic church it could be

1915
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:41,440
you know a buddhist uh chur a buddhist

1916
01:10:45,590 --> 01:10:44,880
faith uh related situation or it could

1917
01:10:51,669 --> 01:10:45,600
be

1918
01:10:52,470 --> 01:10:51,679
but there's always the organizational

1919
01:10:58,310 --> 01:10:52,480
church

1920
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:58,320
the jesuits who might be out there uh

1921
01:11:00,470 --> 01:11:00,000
you know praying and going into

1922
01:11:03,510 --> 01:11:00,480
different

1923
01:11:04,149 --> 01:11:03,520
uh uh levels of consciousness whereas

1924
01:11:06,229 --> 01:11:04,159
there's a

1925
01:11:07,990 --> 01:11:06,239
there are clerics that work at the

1926
01:11:09,430 --> 01:11:08,000
vatican and they have to keep the thing

1927
01:11:09,990 --> 01:11:09,440
running and they don't want to have

1928
01:11:14,310 --> 01:11:10,000
these

1929
01:11:14,950 --> 01:11:14,320
because then they have to deal with it

1930
01:11:16,550 --> 01:11:14,960
and it's

1931
01:11:18,229 --> 01:11:16,560
you know they want to keep the people

1932
01:11:21,830 --> 01:11:18,239
tithing and

1933
01:11:24,149 --> 01:11:21,840
right not not flying off the rooftops

1934
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:24,159
that's right that was one uh point that

1935
01:11:27,750 --> 01:11:25,520
i wanted to make uh

1936
01:11:29,030 --> 01:11:27,760
in in how that you had made very

1937
01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:29,040
eloquently in the book

1938
01:11:32,310 --> 01:11:31,120
the other thing is something off the

1939
01:11:35,030 --> 01:11:32,320
wall sort of

1940
01:11:36,149 --> 01:11:35,040
whatever happened to the poor woman who

1941
01:11:39,510 --> 01:11:36,159
remained living

1942
01:11:43,669 --> 01:11:39,520
uh lucia lucia who uh lived until

1943
01:11:45,910 --> 01:11:43,679
uh 2005 but was sh was she kept

1944
01:11:47,990 --> 01:11:45,920
prisoner kind of by the catholic church

1945
01:11:48,790 --> 01:11:48,000
during some of those years i mean she

1946
01:11:54,310 --> 01:11:48,800
wasn't

1947
01:11:55,669 --> 01:11:54,320
well i mean the catholic church has a

1948
01:11:59,110 --> 01:11:55,679
tradition of

1949
01:12:02,709 --> 01:11:59,120
um certain nuns that take vows

1950
01:12:04,709 --> 01:12:02,719
of um not i mean they speak

1951
01:12:05,990 --> 01:12:04,719
within their convent but they don't

1952
01:12:07,830 --> 01:12:06,000
they're i forgot

1953
01:12:09,750 --> 01:12:07,840
the exact name for it of course i should

1954
01:12:12,390 --> 01:12:09,760
know but they don't actually

1955
01:12:13,990 --> 01:12:12,400
interact with society those are sisters

1956
01:12:14,709 --> 01:12:14,000
right so they're out of the worldly

1957
01:12:17,030 --> 01:12:14,719
world yeah

1958
01:12:17,750 --> 01:12:17,040
uh-huh so she could be cloistered right

1959
01:12:19,669 --> 01:12:17,760
she's like

1960
01:12:21,830 --> 01:12:19,679
and this is a by the way this is a very

1961
01:12:22,950 --> 01:12:21,840
long tradition that has gotten a lot

1962
01:12:26,149 --> 01:12:22,960
more humane

1963
01:12:29,350 --> 01:12:26,159
because um it used to be that um

1964
01:12:31,270 --> 01:12:29,360
that people were holed up in in little

1965
01:12:32,390 --> 01:12:31,280
tiny spaces and people would have to

1966
01:12:34,870 --> 01:12:32,400
bring them food and

1967
01:12:36,470 --> 01:12:34,880
and stuff like that so these were called

1968
01:12:38,310 --> 01:12:36,480
anchor rights yes and this is

1969
01:12:40,070 --> 01:12:38,320
this was a you know tradition within the

1970
01:12:42,709 --> 01:12:40,080
catholic church so um

1971
01:12:43,350 --> 01:12:42,719
and the greek orthodox as well i believe

1972
01:12:44,950 --> 01:12:43,360
they have yeah

1973
01:12:48,709 --> 01:12:44,960
that's right yep anchor rights that's

1974
01:12:50,950 --> 01:12:48,719
right and i mean this is hardcore right

1975
01:12:51,750 --> 01:12:50,960
not what i'd want to do with my life no

1976
01:12:53,590 --> 01:12:51,760
me either

1977
01:12:55,669 --> 01:12:53,600
so you know it could very well be that

1978
01:12:56,709 --> 01:12:55,679
she is part of that tradition now i

1979
01:12:58,870 --> 01:12:56,719
don't know

1980
01:13:00,229 --> 01:12:58,880
i know there were conspiracies about you

1981
01:13:01,350 --> 01:13:00,239
know shutting her up and

1982
01:13:03,830 --> 01:13:01,360
you know she just happened to be a

1983
01:13:05,910 --> 01:13:03,840
person who was given information from

1984
01:13:07,270 --> 01:13:05,920
this experience she had everybody wanted

1985
01:13:09,189 --> 01:13:07,280
to know what it was

1986
01:13:10,630 --> 01:13:09,199
um you know wouldn't that be cool if we

1987
01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:10,640
could know what it was but

1988
01:13:15,350 --> 01:13:12,960
she has passed away and that whatever

1989
01:13:18,870 --> 01:13:15,360
she said is kept somewhere i have not

1990
01:13:20,550 --> 01:13:18,880
privy to it right i just my question was

1991
01:13:21,830 --> 01:13:20,560
and you don't have the final answer to

1992
01:13:24,149 --> 01:13:21,840
this obviously but

1993
01:13:26,229 --> 01:13:24,159
i want to put it out there you know for

1994
01:13:29,990 --> 01:13:26,239
our listeners to

1995
01:13:33,669 --> 01:13:30,000
muse over it a little bit and that is

1996
01:13:34,470 --> 01:13:33,679
was her cloistering voluntary or not

1997
01:13:37,750 --> 01:13:34,480
that's

1998
01:13:40,950 --> 01:13:37,760
mind about

1999
01:13:43,430 --> 01:13:40,960
her you know because she uh as you say

2000
01:13:45,990 --> 01:13:43,440
the children never used the term the

2001
01:13:49,030 --> 01:13:46,000
virgin mary was here initially

2002
01:13:52,149 --> 01:13:49,040
until the adults introduced that and

2003
01:13:54,470 --> 01:13:52,159
after this uh went on she

2004
01:13:56,149 --> 01:13:54,480
basically went in and became a nun and

2005
01:13:58,550 --> 01:13:56,159
was never heard from again

2006
01:14:00,709 --> 01:13:58,560
i just like to know if it was voluntary

2007
01:14:02,870 --> 01:14:00,719
but that's not what your book is about

2008
01:14:04,310 --> 01:14:02,880
and your book is wonderful so let's hear

2009
01:14:07,830 --> 01:14:04,320
it again

2010
01:14:09,830 --> 01:14:07,840
it's um american cosmic and you have a

2011
01:14:11,590 --> 01:14:09,840
secondary title and a publisher and

2012
01:14:13,750 --> 01:14:11,600
a way to get the book if you want to

2013
01:14:14,390 --> 01:14:13,760
tell our listeners how they can get the

2014
01:14:17,350 --> 01:14:14,400
book

2015
01:14:19,910 --> 01:14:17,360
sure so um it's american cosmic and i

2016
01:14:22,390 --> 01:14:19,920
have a website americancosmic.com

2017
01:14:23,669 --> 01:14:22,400
and it's being published by oxford

2018
01:14:26,470 --> 01:14:23,679
university press

2019
01:14:28,229 --> 01:14:26,480
and the release date is january 2nd for

2020
01:14:31,350 --> 01:14:28,239
oxford and i could give you

2021
01:14:33,189 --> 01:14:31,360
uh i could give you a 30

2022
01:14:35,189 --> 01:14:33,199
discount for your listeners if they're

2023
01:14:37,110 --> 01:14:35,199
interested in buying it at the oxford

2024
01:14:38,149 --> 01:14:37,120
university site it won't work on the

2025
01:14:41,189 --> 01:14:38,159
amazon site

2026
01:14:43,750 --> 01:14:41,199
is february

2027
01:14:45,350 --> 01:14:43,760
1st so um i don't know why the

2028
01:14:45,990 --> 01:14:45,360
difference but there is that difference

2029
01:14:48,790 --> 01:14:46,000
there

2030
01:14:49,270 --> 01:14:48,800
and um yeah it was pleasure to be on

2031
01:14:52,950 --> 01:14:49,280
your

2032
01:14:53,830 --> 01:14:52,960
conversation i i really enjoyed this a

2033
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:53,840
great deal

2034
01:14:59,669 --> 01:14:57,520
and um i hope and i trust that uh

2035
01:15:01,430 --> 01:14:59,679
if this will be a blockbuster book i

2036
01:15:04,350 --> 01:15:01,440
can't imagine anybody

2037
01:15:05,510 --> 01:15:04,360
not wanting to read it um and the

2038
01:15:09,030 --> 01:15:05,520
bibliography

2039
01:15:09,350 --> 01:15:09,040
alone uh is amazing and is gonna if if i

2040
01:15:11,590 --> 01:15:09,360
had

2041
01:15:13,510 --> 01:15:11,600
endless time i would just about read

2042
01:15:16,790 --> 01:15:13,520
everything on it

2043
01:15:19,350 --> 01:15:16,800
oftentimes uh

2044
01:15:21,030 --> 01:15:19,360
twice or three times so i recommend the

2045
01:15:22,950 --> 01:15:21,040
bibliography definitely

2046
01:15:25,910 --> 01:15:22,960
and the whole book is fabulous thank you

2047
01:15:29,590 --> 01:15:25,920
so much diana walsh basalka

2048
01:15:32,870 --> 01:15:29,600
thank you very much all righty bye now

2049
01:15:35,830 --> 01:15:32,880
okay bye so

2050
01:15:37,430 --> 01:15:35,840
that was you're welcome that was

2051
01:15:41,910 --> 01:15:37,440
shattered reality

2052
01:15:42,790 --> 01:15:41,920
number 80. um diana was very kind to

2053
01:15:46,630 --> 01:15:42,800
mention

2054
01:15:48,070 --> 01:15:46,640
a a discount i do not know how long that

2055
01:15:50,950 --> 01:15:48,080
discount will last for

2056
01:15:53,270 --> 01:15:50,960
whether it will last until this show

2057
01:15:56,390 --> 01:15:53,280
gets up on youtube as well as our

2058
01:15:58,950 --> 01:15:56,400
other uh outlets for the show but

2059
01:16:00,790 --> 01:15:58,960
uh hopefully everybody who listens to

2060
01:16:03,590 --> 01:16:00,800
the show will just be

2061
01:16:06,229 --> 01:16:03,600
very very anxious to read this book and

2062
01:16:08,790 --> 01:16:06,239
want to pick it up right away

2063
01:16:09,990 --> 01:16:08,800
we do have some plans for the new year

2064
01:16:13,350 --> 01:16:10,000
this is probably

2065
01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:13,360
our last podcast of 2018

2066
01:16:19,590 --> 01:16:16,800
and we are missing our co-host

2067
01:16:21,430 --> 01:16:19,600
kate valentine and we hope that she is

2068
01:16:23,430 --> 01:16:21,440
able to come back soon she

2069
01:16:24,470 --> 01:16:23,440
i know she was very interested in coming

2070
01:16:27,990 --> 01:16:24,480
today but

2071
01:16:31,669 --> 01:16:28,000
again could not make it and um

2072
01:16:35,030 --> 01:16:31,679
so uh for kate valentine and

2073
01:16:38,550 --> 01:16:35,040
our wonderful engineer bill

2074
01:16:43,430 --> 01:16:38,560
and myself i want to wish everyone a

2075
01:16:47,430 --> 01:16:43,440
very happy holiday whether you celebrate

2076
01:16:50,229 --> 01:16:47,440
christmas hanukkah kwanzaa tet

2077
01:16:51,189 --> 01:16:50,239
or any other holiday that occurs in this

2078
01:16:53,990 --> 01:16:51,199
time frame

2079
01:16:54,790 --> 01:16:54,000
have a very very happy holiday and all

2080
01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:54,800
of us

2081
01:16:58,070 --> 01:16:57,440
here in the western world celebrate new

2082
01:17:01,590 --> 01:16:58,080
year

2083
01:17:04,630 --> 01:17:01,600
time

2084
01:17:16,190 --> 01:17:04,640
thank you and goodbye